The trouble with Europe

[sasguru]

Was talking to an American university friend ( bright guy, went on to do a PhD in Harvard and was some kind of policy wonk in the Bush admin) and he told me something that always gets lost in this UK/Europe debate:

He reckons if the UK leaves Europe, the special relationship is over. He reckoned the UK was the US "Trojan Horse" (his words) in Europe, its way of influencing what went on there. Britain as an offshore island was about as much use to the US as Singapore.
So I asked the obvious question, which country if not the UK would be the US special partner in Europe?
His answer, which I did not find very convincing, was that, given US demographic shift patterns, Spain was the obvious candidate.

[The Spartan]

I don't mind taking Dutch nationality but I won't give up British nationality for a very simple reason; my parents and other close family live in Britain, my parents are getting older, and I want to be absolutely certain that if they need me, for instance when/if their health declines, that I can return to Britain, especially if Britain's out of the EU at some time in the future. Same applies to a lot of migrants all over the world.

Very understandable, you're a good 'un aren't you Mich

[darmstadt]

Well you may be asking the wrong kind of people. Anyone who's not just working but settled and married in another country will be much more likely to apply for a local passport at the expense of their existing one. I know several Americans who've done just that.

I'd give up my German passport without hesitation if necessary as I have no intentions of returning to Germany. But as long as the UK stays in the EU (which I don't see changing), I could have both anyway. So the only reason I haven't bothered with a UK passport yet is because I'd have nothing to gain from it currently.

I wouldn't give up my British passport but I can have dual citizenship now. I just have to go down to the local 'Amt', fill in a few forms, hand over some money and I'll also have a German passport. Don't even need to get married to Frau D. Sorted.

[NickFitz]

Sir Humphrey: Minister, Britain has had the same foreign policy objective for at least the last five hundred years: to create a disunited Europe. In that cause we have fought with the Dutch against the Spanish, with the Germans against the French, with the French and Italians against the Germans, and with the French against the Germans and Italians. Divide and rule, you see. Why should we change now, when it's worked so well?
Hacker: That's all ancient history, surely?
Sir Humphrey: Yes, and current policy. We had to break the whole thing up, so we had to get inside. We tried to break it up from the outside, but that wouldn't work. Now that we're inside we can make a complete pig's breakfast of the whole thing: set the Germans against the French, the French against the Italians, the Italians against the Dutch. The Foreign Office is terribly pleased; it's just like old times.
Hacker: But surely we're all committed to the European ideal?
Sir Humphrey: [chuckles] Really, Minister.
Hacker: If not, why are we pushing for an increase in the membership?
Sir Humphrey: Well, for the same reason. It's just like the United Nations, in fact; the more members it has, the more arguments it can stir up, the more futile and impotent it becomes.
Hacker: What appalling cynicism.
Sir Humphrey: Yes... We call it diplomacy, Minister.

[Troll]

Was talking to an American university friend ( bright guy, went on to do a PhD in Harvard and was some kind of policy wonk in the Bush admin) and he told me something that always gets lost in this UK/Europe debate:

He reckons if the UK leaves Europe, the special relationship is over. He reckoned the UK was the US "Trojan Horse" (his words) in Europe, its way of influencing what went on there. Britain as an offshore island was about as much use to the US as Singapore.
So I asked the obvious question, which country if not the UK would be the US special partner in Europe?
His answer, which I did not find very convincing, was that, given US demographic shift patterns, Spain was the obvious candidate.

Depends if you were naive enough to imagine there ever was a "special relationship"

[sasguru]

Depends if you were naive enough to imagine there ever was a "special relationship"

There is and was.
It consists of us bending over and being shafted in exchange for some scraps from the top table.

[chef]

Well you may be asking the wrong kind of people. Anyone who's not just working but settled and married in another country will be much more likely to apply for a local passport at the expense of their existing one. I know several Americans who've done just that.

I'd give up my German passport without hesitation if necessary as I have no intentions of returning to Germany. But as long as the UK stays in the EU (which I don't see changing), I could have both anyway. So the only reason I haven't bothered with a UK passport yet is because I'd have nothing to gain from it currently.

I wouldn't give up my British passport but I can have dual citizenship now. I just have to go down to the local 'Amt', fill in a few forms, hand over some money and I'll also have a German passport. Don't even need to get married to Frau D. Sorted.

errr I thought that Germany is one of the few countries that does not allow dual citizenship and once a child reaches 18 they must decide, therefore both of you couldnt have both a german and british passport, or am i wrong.. I'm going to look.

[chef]

from Interior Ministry of Germany' website

Dual citizenship- multiple nationality

Is it possible to have another citizenship in addition to German citizenship?

In certain cases, German nationality law allows its citizens to have or acquire an additional citizenship. Multiple nationality may result from the following situations:

As a rule, children born to a German and a non-German parent, or to parents with dual nationality, acquire the nationalities of both parents at birth, according to the principle of descent.

Ethnic German repatriates and family members admitted with them acquire German citizenship when they are issued a repatriates certificate, in accordance with Section 7 of the Nationality Act; they do not have to give up their previous citizenship. If allowed by their countries of origin, their children born in Germany then acquire at birth both German citizenship and that of their parents.

In certain cases, German citizens may apply for dual nationality, allowing them to acquire foreign citizenship while retaining their German citizenship.

Those who have multiple nationality for one of these reasons normally pass multiple nationality on to their children. In such cases, German law allows children to retain their multiple nationality permanently; i.e., they do not have choose between their German and foreign citizenship upon reaching the age of majority.Persons with multiple nationality may, however, choose to give up their German citizenship (Section 26 of the Nationality Act).

The number of German multiple nationals is unknown because in Germany they are treated exclusively as German nationals and cannot invoke their other nationality when dealing with the authorities. Multiple nationality is no longer a rarity and does not cause any special difficulties.

Can I become a naturalized citizen without giving up my previous citizenship?

Section 12 of the Nationality Act

As a rule, no. One aim of German nationality law is to avoid creating multiple nationality through naturalization as far as possible. However, there are exceptions for cases of special hardship, specifically:

for victims of political persecution and recognized refugees, the requirement to obtain release from previous citizenships are generally waived;
when applicants cannot reasonably be expected to meet the conditions for release from their nationality, including unreasonable fees or humiliating practices to obtain release;
for elderly persons, if being released from their foreign nationality would cause unreasonable difficulties, and being denied naturalization would constitute a special hardship;
or if being released from previous citizenship would cause significant disadvantages, particularly in terms of finances or property rights.

In addition, candidates for naturalization from EU countries are subject to special rules.

Do special rules apply to EU citizens?

Given the aim of increasing European integration, the law contains special rules for EU citizens: They are not required to give up their previous citizenship in order to become naturalized German citizens, if their country of origin does not require Germans to give up their citizenship to become naturalized citizens of that country. According to Section 25 para. 2 of the Nationality Act, Germans who become naturalized citizens of another EU country may receive permission to retain their German citizenship.

This rule currently applies to the following EU countries: Greece, the UK, Ireland, Portugal, Sweden, Finland, France, Belgium, Italy, Hungary, Poland, Slovakia, Malta and Cyprus. With regard to the Netherlands and Slovenia, it applies only to certain categories of persons.

and so by that I would assume that if the UK left the EU then they would no longer be allowed dual nationality and therefore have to give up their British citizenship to become a German one.. oh dear

[doodab]

I see that Dave is planning to "renegotiate" our place in the EU. It all seems a bit detail light though. What exactly is he going to ask for? Pay less? Get more? Changes to the way Europe operates? Or just opting out of some specific stuff?

[chef]

I see that Dave is planning to "renegotiate" our place in the EU. It all seems a bit detail light though. What exactly is he going to ask for? Pay less? Get more? Changes to the way Europe operates? Or just opting out of some specific stuff?

I guess its been left vague so that he cant be beaten down with not performing as expected during the next elections by labour