Thank you Kelvin

[sasguru]

So thats alright then? we slavishly pay our taxes and be grateful in return for the NHS?

If you had a chronic condition - as you may have in the future - you'd be very grateful for the NHS.
The biggest cause of personal bankruptcy in the US is having to pay for treatment for conditions not insured for/insurers won't insure you for.

[LatteLiberal]

Is there no end to your cretinism?

He won't reply, he is out buying crates of Lynx deodorant, haven't you seen the effects it has on women?

[DodgyAgent]

If you had a chronic condition - as you may have in the future - you'd be very grateful for the NHS.
The biggest cause of personal bankruptcy in the US is having to pay for treatment for conditions not insured for/insurers won't insure you for.

Fair enough. Having said that the NHS failed to diagnose cancer in my brother and it was only when he asked to be referred to a private clinic did they find the cells.
My entire point however is that we should not accept paying taxes and obligingly acquiesce to whatever service that the public sector wish to give us. Just because they are fit for purpose in some areas does not mean they can get away with shoddy treatment in others. And just because the NHS is the only show in town does not mean that we should not discuss other ways of delivering services (to everyone) even if that means privatising it.
We should not be manipulated by for instance people who want to resist change to the detriment of service whether they are liberal lefties or vested interest workers.

[pjclarke]

we slavishly pay our taxes and be grateful in return for the NHS?

Amongst many other things, the reason the taxman as burglar analogy is bunkum is because this burglar provides the Fire Service, Ambulance Service, Highways Agency, Rail Regulator, Education, the RAF, Navy, Air Force and Coastguard, Police, OfCom, OfGen, Ofsted etc. etc. etc.

Nobody would argue that the NHS is incapable of improvement, but the evidence suggests that if it was scrapped and replaced by some kind of subscription or insurance funded equivalent the level and scope of care would end up worse and a lot more expensive.

So yes, a smidgen of gratitude would seem appropriate.

[DodgyAgent]

Amongst many other things, the reason the taxman as burglar analogy is bunkum is because this burglar provides the Fire Service, Ambulance Service, Highways Agency, Rail Regulator, Education, the RAF, Navy, Air Force and Coastguard, Police, OfCom, OfGen, Ofsted etc. etc. etc.

Nobody would argue that the NHS is incapable of improvement, but the evidence suggests that if it was scrapped and replaced by some kind of subscription or insurance funded equivalent the level and scope of care would end up worse and a lot more expensive.

So yes, a smidgen of gratitude would seem appropriate.

It is a key part of the defence of self interest driven monopolies that any change or reform is painted as "scrapping a service that is vital" as if there is only one choice. This is frankly a lie. As for the other services it is all very well to say our tax is needed to provide the services they provide but this does not mean that they should not be held accountable.
So badly run is our education system (which unfortunately is cruelly exposed when compared to private education) and other public services that no one feels a moral obligation to pay taxes let alone show gratitude.

[Mich the Tester]

So badly run is our education system (which unfortunately is cruelly exposed when compared to private education) and other public services that no one feels a moral obligation to pay taxes let alone show gratitude.

How come other countries manage to run public education systems succesfully?

[Doggy Styles]

How come other countries manage to run public education systems succesfully?

A better question might be why can't the UK run them as well as those other countries.

It is partly because we have the wrong objectives here - to have ever-increasing exam pass-rates, and increasing numbers of students at 'university'.

Both are crap objectives, as we are now seeing.

[pjclarke]

this does not mean that they should not be held accountable

You've obviously never been anywhere near a school staffroom in the days leading up to an Ofsted inspection. I daresay if state schools were allowed to cherry-pick the best parents and pupils and declare themselves charities, as their private counterparts do, performance might just inch up a little, no?

[DodgyAgent]

How come other countries manage to run public education systems succesfully?

That is a very good question.

[DodgyAgent]

You've obviously never been anywhere near a school staffroom in the days leading up to an Ofsted inspection. I daresay if state schools were allowed to cherry-pick the best parents and pupils and declare themselves charities, as their private counterparts do, performance might just inch up a little, no?

All kids are the very best and all kids deserve to choose (or have chosen for them) the most appropriate school for them. All schools should be made to compete for children to be sent to them. If middle class parents did as you say and send their kids to poorly performing schools their children would simply be turned out as feckless chavs just like the rest. The reason state schools are not charities is because they do not need to be they receive their state funds irrespective. In typical left wing manner you think that by throwing around some emotive cliches you can stir emotions to support your non view.