On religion

[MyUserName]

So, if we are going to leave the question of whether there is historical evidence for Jesus other than hearsay:

If Jesus was real and did these amazing things without attracting the attention of any historians of the time, how do we know that he was telling the truth about the source of his magical power?

Also, in response to the gospels needing to be slightly out of sync in order to be plausible please bear in mind that they cannot even agree on who witnessed Christ's resurrection which is pretty much the cornerstone of Christianity.

Also, ISTR they are out of sync with when it happened.
Also ISTR that Matthew (although it might be a different one) mentions how dead saints rose from the graves to walk among the living having a chat. I always found it strange that no other source has ever mentioned this!

[BrilloPad]

Why was this thread moved to LR?

[MyUserName]

No idea but it is a shame as I was enjoying a well reasoned and mostly civil debate and now people will probably not see it or just forget about it.

[hyperD]

Hey, can we move this back to General - this has been a very polite and interesting discussion!

[NotAllThere]

Hey, can we move this back to General - this has been a very polite and interesting discussion!

OK.

[hyperD]

OK.

Thanks NAT!

[speling bee]

So, if we are going to leave the question of whether there is historical evidence for Jesus other than hearsay:

If Jesus was real and did these amazing things without attracting the attention of any historians of the time, how do we know that he was telling the truth about the source of his magical power?

Also, in response to the gospels needing to be slightly out of sync in order to be plausible please bear in mind that they cannot even agree on who witnessed Christ's resurrection which is pretty much the cornerstone of Christianity.

Also, ISTR they are out of sync with when it happened.
Also ISTR that Matthew (although it might be a different one) mentions how dead saints rose from the graves to walk among the living having a chat. I always found it strange that no other source has ever mentioned this!

We have no eye witness account of Boudicca / Boadicea. Tacitus will have spoken to his father-in-law Agricola, who was probably an eye witness account, but it's just hearsay. And so goes ancient history. Sources often contradict each other.

The super-natural was part of the ancient world and reputable historians often reported omens (from memory the river Thames running red before Boudicca's revolt) as if they were fact. Jesus would have been one of many wonder workers in the Near East at the time. You believe or you don't because you have faith or you don't.

[MyUserName]

We have no eye witness account of Boudicca / Boadicea. Tacitus will have spoken to his father-in-law Agricola, who was probably an eye witness account, but it's just hearsay. And so goes ancient history. Sources often contradict each other.

There are a couple of primary sources which mention Boudicca (unlike Jesus). Also what is mentioned about her fits the framework of the history we know from other sources. The greater the claim the greater the burder of proof - the claim is that this Jesus fellow existed (despite no primary sources confirming this) and was a demi god who routinely did miracles and was known far and wide (again, no primary sources). Which of the gospels do you believe is right and which do you believe is wrong? Do you think that there are other errors in the gospels? Actually if you are prepared to admit that some of the gospels are wrong, what makes you believe any of them are right?

The super-natural was part of the ancient world and reputable historians often reported omens (from memory the river Thames running red before Boudicca's revolt) as if they were fact. Jesus would have been one of many wonder workers in the Near East at the time.

Could you provide sources for that, please? Which other wonder workers were wondering around the Middle East? Do you believe they were real? If not, why not as they have more primary source evidence than Jesus does?
Also, Jesus's miracles were legendary such as causing eclipses, raising the dead etc. Thousands of people came from miles around to hear him talk and not one of the historians in the area at the time mentions him - not one.
Also not histories mentioned the masacre of the infants by Herord, the census which brought Jospeh back to Bethlehem (depsite other censues being recorded) etc.

You believe or you don't because you have faith or you don't

I do not believe anything until it has satisfied it's burden of proof. This is not a choice, belief is subconscious.

[speling bee]

There are a couple of primary sources which mention Boudicca (unlike Jesus). Also what is mentioned about her fits the framework of the history we know from other sources. The greater the claim the greater the burder of proof - the claim is that this Jesus fellow existed (despite no primary sources confirming this) and was a demi god who routinely did miracles and was known far and wide (again, no primary sources). Which of the gospels do you believe is right and which do you believe is wrong? Do you think that there are other errors in the gospels? Actually if you are prepared to admit that some of the gospels are wrong, what makes you believe any of them are right?



Could you provide sources for that, please? Which other wonder workers were wondering around the Middle East? Do you believe they were real? If not, why not as they have more primary source evidence than Jesus does?
Also, Jesus's miracles were legendary such as causing eclipses, raising the dead etc. Thousands of people came from miles around to hear him talk and not one of the historians in the area at the time mentions him - not one.
Also not histories mentioned the masacre of the infants by Herord, the census which brought Jospeh back to Bethlehem (depsite other censues being recorded) etc.


I do not believe anything until it has satisfied it's burden of proof. This is not a choice, belief is subconscious.

You need to understand the paucity of sources in ancient history. Jesus' miracles are not historical. I doubt many of the historical details are real. I doubt Herod's massacre occurred, or the census. That doesn't not mean that Jesus the man is not a historical figure . I'm not sure who you have as a primary source for Boudicca, better than we have for Jesus, but then it's a long time since I studied it, so I may have forgotten.

If you want another wonder worker, try Simon Magus. The ancient world was full of wonders and people believed in them. You will see it in Tacitus, Ammianus Marcellinus and I am sure many others. The wonders were not historical, but we do not then dismiss the entire history.

[MyUserName]

You need to understand the paucity of sources in ancient history. Jesus' miracles are not historical. I doubt many of the historical details are real. I doubt Herod's massacre occurred, or the census. That doesn't not mean that Jesus the man is not a historical figure . I'm not sure who you have as a primary source for Boudicca, better than we have for Jesus, but then it's a long time since I studied it, so I may have forgotten.

It does not mean he is not a historical figure, however, there is absolutely no evidence other than hearsay for his existence which is my point (which people jumped down my throat for making previously).

If you also do not believe that the Herod's massacre occured etc then we are pretty much on the same wave length. The bible has various statements in it which are historically inaccurate amongst other contradictions etc and therefore cannot be relied upon to be correct about anything (as we have no idea what is right and what is wrong).

There is no supporting evidence other than hearsay and a book which we have shown to contain various errors hence I see no reason to believe he existed or anything else that the bible says with supporting evidence.

I offer the same treatment to Allah, Ra, aliens, the tooth fairy etc.
This is without going into the various problems in having an all poweful God.