Did Thatcher create the Chav underclass?

[DodgyAgent]

We'll probably never agree on economic policy, thank god, so I can't really see the point in trying to convince you. - Back to the original point of the argument - I still find it interesting that you are all still willing to give praise to thatcher for dragging Britain out of the doldrums yet totally absolve her of any blame for the social problems she caused along the way.

I suppose it's hard to see when you've got your head stuck so far up someone's arse.

The social problems were there anyway and the reasons why they were there have been argued on this board ad finitum. The consensus has been that these social problems were caused by socialist policies. The economic arguments supporting Thatcher have been presented logically with the use of some sort of reasoning. No one has yet tried to offer an alternative economic, social or moral argument. People like you just accuse her of destroying jobs and industry without making any attempt to understand why society allowed her to do so.
The cases made about Thatcher are nothing to do with being obsessed about her they are all opinions carried by "arguments". You on the other hand offer no argument whatsoever which suggests that your own view of Thatcher is nothing more than blind bigotry.

I rather fancy that the reason people like you hate her so much is that she has torpedoed socialism's claim that its ideals have some sort of moral and social integrity.

My views have been made often and they must be pretty boring by now
so it is important that working class people like you unite and dismantle them

[Fungus]

Benny Boy and his socialist 'workers' probably don't even know that under Callaghan the country came within a cat's whisker of going bankrupt.

The amusing thing is that Teflon Tony has publicly endorsed the Thatcher changes as being necessary, and his government have in many respects done little more than carry on the Tories policies, but adding lots more hidden taxation and lots more tax laws and regulations.

The other changes such as NHS reform, education reform, police reform, immigration controls, have all been huge successes. And if you believe that you'd better use choose and book.

My accountant recently upped his charges by a large amount. The reason given was the substantially increased workload due to changes in government regulations.

[John Galt]

We'll probably never agree on economic policy, thank god, so I can't really see the point in trying to convince you. - Back to the original point of the argument - I still find it interesting that you are all still willing to give praise to thatcher for dragging Britain out of the doldrums yet totally absolve her of any blame for the social problems she caused along the way.

I suppose it's hard to see when you've got your head stuck so far up someone's arse.

Ok BennO I am going to give you a chance here.......which of Mrs Thatchers' specific policies directly resulted in social problems?

If you can back up what you say with hard facts no problem - it's a good discussion; if you can't then sally forth and multiply

[sasguru]

When I was 18 my instincts were socialist. I believed all that crap and hated Thatcher with a vengeance. But my "Beliefs", badly thought through as they were could not survive the cold light of reality.

[snaw]

The only reason that this situation has been allowed to prevail is because we have been conned by the left into thinking that paying tax is somehow morally a good thing, when in reality the opposite is true. I have made this point on a number of occasions and neither snaw benn0 or the other lefties have been able to counter it.
t.

Eh? We've never been able to counter it cause you don't feckin read other people's posts. Bit hard to get a counter arguement in under those circumstances. No tax and relying on the goodwill of the better off to help feed the poor has been tried a number of times in a number of places throughout history and I don't believe the outcome was all that great for the ones at the bottom, mainly down to them usually dying pretty bloody quickly. Quite good though if you're on of the ones in the money.

I've yet to see where this theory of yours actually resulted in a utopian society where the poor threw off their shackles and lived happily ever after. The US is about as close as I've seen to a low tax western society and they've got some serious underclass issues that make our look, well kind of Big Dady & Giant Haystacks vs WWF ...

On the mining thing I'd not argue that the mining industry was dying and Scargill was a tw*t - most miners would agree. I'd argue that Thatcher set out with a deliberate policy to crush the power of the unions, and even that I wouldn't argue against cause they had too much back in those day's.

The point getting missed is that once she achieved her goal (And in other industries in the UK) of crushing their power she didn't give a toss about the casulties, she concentrated on her core consituency and everyone else could get stuffed - very divisive politics which I believe the Tories are suffering the effects from even still. They used to be a fairly strong party in Scotland until Thatcher, in the same way the tory vote was (is?) getting older - she turned off a generation of people.

Not that she did it all by herself, the Major sleaze years put the icing on the cake but die hard tories can't get that while she was overall a good thing for the country, she was by no means good for everyone and was genuinely hated, like no other politician I know, by a significant number of people. Kind of how Blair is getting these days amongst the tradtional tory voters - though it's debatable if he's hated just quite as much.

[Fungus]

No tax and relying on the goodwill of the better off to help feed the poor has been tried a number of times in a number of places throughout history

Taxation of 80% on the filthy rich drove them overseas, depriving the country of wealth creators. When Mrs T. reduced tax to sensible levels, total tax takes went up because the rich were no longer driven away. And they were needed to kick start the economy.

Not that she did it all by herself, the Major sleaze years put the icing on the cake

There was some sleaze from the likes of Aitken and Archer, both of whom went to jail, though not before the honest journalist who persued Archer and only told the truth had his life ruined by losing a libel trial. That was disgraceful.

But the sleaze aspect was blown out of all proportion. Jack Straw recently admitted that they were doing all they could to feed the press. He said that he regretted going so far as it tarnished the image of all politicians.

But look at this lot. Martin Bell, who describes politics as a sordid business, says openly that this lot are far sleazier than the Tories ever were.

Look at all the lies over Iraq, the alleged sexual harassment of several women by Prescott, jobs for the un-elected boys - Blair's ex-tutor and flat mate both became Lord Chancellor - selling peerages for loans to the labour party and donations to foundation schools - currently being investigated by the police - the complete farce over immigration, with even Blunkett describing the Home Office under Straw as being a complete mess, a senior minister married to someone currently being investigated by Italian police over very serious corruption charges, and not declaring income for tax purposes and yet being let off lightly, and so on.

There is such an incredibly bad smell around this government that you have to wear a clothes peg on the nose. And yet Blair lords it about the place doing his "how could you be so rude about us, we are decent honest people, not like the nasty Tories". No-one resigns. No-one accepts responsibility.

but die hard tories can't get that while she was overall a good thing for the country, she was by no means good for everyone and was genuinely hated, like no other politician I know, by a significant number of people. Kind of how Blair is getting these days amongst the tradtional tory voters - though it's debatable if he's hated just quite as much.

During the 80's I absolutely loathed Mrs. Thatcher and enjoyed the anti-Tory rantings of Ben Elton and other lefties. I thought she only cared about the rich, and was trying to destroy the country. I couldn't wait for her to go. But with age has come maturity, and I can now see through the simplistic bollux of lefties who say "I care about the poor. Trust me."

Oh, and there is also the fact that Mrs. Thatcher had a somewhat patronising and aloof manner, and though a woman, she was not exactly attractive. Whereas Blair is smooth, with charm, and talks in a casual manner, as if you could chat to him in the pub. Young people fall for such superficial aspects of a person.

Oh, and the Iron Curtain fell, revealing that all these well meaning socialists were totally misguided, and that the soviet system had carried out mass murder on undreamed of scales, all in the name of a worker's paradise. All the carp spouted by socialists about the USSR turned out totally and completely wrong. The USSR spent a fortune on propaganda, including paying for gullible lefties to go on holiday to the worker's paradise, where they were chaperoned, and kept away from real people.

Anyway, I think you would be surprised at the dislike of Blair. It has taken us a long while to see through Blair's smoke and mirrors. And yes I would have voted for him in 1997. A shameful admission. [errr, do I have to go and stand in the corner now?]

Fungus

[snaw]

Taxation of 80% on the filthy rich drove them overseas, depriving the country of wealth creators. When Mrs T. reduced tax to sensible levels, total tax takes went up because the rich were no longer driven away. And they were needed to kick start the economy.



There was some sleaze from the likes of Aitken and Archer, both of whom went to jail, though not before the honest journalist who persued Archer and only told the truth had his life ruined by losing a libel trial. That was disgraceful.

But the sleaze aspect was blown out of all proportion. Jack Straw recently admitted that they were doing all they could to feed the press. He said that he regretted going so far as it tarnished the image of all politicians.

But look at this lot. Martin Bell, who describes politics as a sordid business, says openly that this lot are far sleazier than the Tories ever were.

Look at all the lies over Iraq, the alleged sexual harassment of several women by Prescott, jobs for the un-elected boys - Blair's ex-tutor and flat mate both became Lord Chancellor - selling peerages for loans to the labour party and donations to foundation schools - currently being investigated by the police - the complete farce over immigration, with even Blunkett describing the Home Office under Straw as being a complete mess, a senior minister married to someone currently being investigated by Italian police over very serious corruption charges, and not declaring income for tax purposes and yet being let off lightly, and so on.

There is such an incredibly bad smell around this government that you have to wear a clothes peg on the nose. And yet Blair lords it about the place doing his "how could you be so rude about us, we are decent honest people, not like the nasty Tories". No-one resigns. No-one accepts responsibility.



During the 80's I absolutely loathed Mrs. Thatcher and enjoyed the anti-Tory rantings of Ben Elton and other lefties. I thought she only cared about the rich, and was trying to destroy the country. I couldn't wait for her to go. But with age has come maturity, and I can now see through the simplistic bollux of lefties who say "I care about the poor. Trust me."

Oh, and there is also the fact that Mrs. Thatcher had a somewhat patronising and aloof manner, and though a woman, she was not exactly attractive. Whereas Blair is smooth, with charm, and talks in a casual manner, as if you could chat to him in the pub. Young people fall for such superficial aspects of a person.

Oh, and the Iron Curtain fell, revealing that all these well meaning socialists were totally misguided, and that the soviet system had carried out mass murder on undreamed of scales, all in the name of a worker's paradise. All the carp spouted by socialists about the USSR turned out totally and completely wrong. The USSR spent a fortune on propaganda, including paying for gullible lefties to go on holiday to the worker's paradise, where they were chaperoned, and kept away from real people.

Anyway, I think you would be surprised at the dislike of Blair. It has taken us a long while to see through Blair's smoke and mirrors. And yes I would have voted for him in 1997. A shameful admission. [errr, do I have to go and stand in the corner now?]

Fungus

Not gonna argue for this government - I never voted for them and I agree that something is rotten in Denmark. But I'd say that's just politicians in general, I don't believe the tories would be any better in that regard given half a chance.

I do find it a wee bit ironic that you mention Mrs T's patronising manor while in the same paragrapgh commenting on how "young people fall for such superficial aspects of a person." That's a doozy.

And you may want to go check out a political dictionary and check out the meanings of socialist, communist, stalanist etc. Russia was never a socialist country back in Mrs T's day (Though you'll find gullible people in all walks of life), though South Africa was still under apartheid and Chile was run by a dictator who 'disappeared' quite a number of people, but that's ok cause he was our mate then ...

[bfg]

Regarding the original question, no Thatcher the milk snatcher did not cause the chav culture.

She did many things that were wrong and many that were right but welfare dependancy is the cause of that particular culture and it can only happen when welfare is provided to a level that provides a relatively luxurious lifestyle. She did allow many people to be on welfare, primarily as a mechanism to keep wages down, but she never allowed the level of benefits available to be an attractive alternative to taking work.

She actively destoyed mining, my first career was in that industry, ably assisted by the moron Scargill. She was fighting a war against the miners to destroy them for bringing down Heath and he made her all the bullets she needed. I still to this day think it is stupid to place reliance upon other energy sources when we have 800 years worth of fuel under our feet, especially when we have the technology to use it with minimal carbon and other pollutant emissions.

Her biggest mistake was to destroy much good and efficient manufacturing capability within this country along with the bad that needed to be culled.

Tony Blair is no better he has destroyed many hundreds of thousands of manufacturing jobs but worse he has destroyed many millions of other jobs in the knowledge and service industries, the 'economically inactive' count - the real unemployment figure - is now at 8 million, the highest since it was first counted in 1973.

[DodgyAgent]

Regarding the original question, no Thatcher the milk snatcher did not cause the chav culture.

She did many things that were wrong and many that were right but welfare dependancy is the cause of that particular culture and it can only happen when welfare is provided to a level that provides a relatively luxurious lifestyle. She did allow many people to be on welfare, primarily as a mechanism to keep wages down, but she never allowed the level of benefits available to be an attractive alternative to taking work.

She actively destoyed mining, my first career was in that industry, ably assisted by the moron Scargill. She was fighting a war against the miners to destroy them for bringing down Heath and he made her all the bullets she needed. I still to this day think it is stupid to place reliance upon other energy sources when we have 800 years worth of fuel under our feet, especially when we have the technology to use it with minimal carbon and other pollutant emissions.

Her biggest mistake was to destroy much good and efficient manufacturing capability within this country along with the bad that needed to be culled.

Tony Blair is no better he has destroyed many hundreds of thousands of manufacturing jobs but worse he has destroyed many millions of other jobs in the knowledge and service industries, the 'economically inactive' count - the real unemployment figure - is now at 8 million, the highest since it was first counted in 1973.

The left cannot seem to present any economic alternative to what Thatcher did. The best that they can do is try and pin their patronising morality to the back of the "poor" miners and to make their case on the back of these undeserving parasites who were cruelly exploited by the unions.

The point that is being made is that what Thatcher did was out of economic necessity not because of some petty revenge or class hatred. It is of course very easy to try and make this point because it is less easy to disprove than the economic argument. As for people hating Thatcher of course they did, she was elected to take some hard decisions, and the people that hated her the most were of course those who had got the UK into the position that it had reached.

Our manufacturing base has been destroyed by all of us. As a nation we prefer to squander billions of our cash on a truly bloated. corrupt,incompetent and wasteful public sector rather than take responsibility for our own lives. The costs of this waste are reflected in the prices of labour- the money that people in this country need to earn to live- coupled with our burdensome employment laws and Health and safety laws we are priced out of manufacturing.

[The Lone Gunman]

Dodgy: To be fair our manufacturing base was a victim of Maggy. She was determined to help propsperous industries and investors where ever she could. That meant opening the door to overseas manufacture in the name of profit.
This was meant to keep prices down and the standard of living up. What it realy did was boost profits for corporations which were not necessarily UK based.
We only survived that because there were service sector jobs for people to move into. Where we will go when Tone has off shored the service industry I dont know. Lesson not learned I would say.

I agree with most of what you say about Maggie, but she is not blameless in the woes of this country though, like Tone, she may not have seen some of the consequences coming.
We needed to go through some painful years to put this country back on its feet. She did it.
The people who hated her were the scroungers of the day or those whose feather beds were pulled out from under them.

For my part: I was made redundant 3 times in the early eighties and spent half of the decade unemployed. Finding work was hard. As the economy picked up so did the oportunities for work. I also took the chance of further Education. Not sure I could do the same now though.