Africa and why waste money on them?

[snaw]

Fair enough - I wouldn't argue that colonisation caused the economic problems faced by Africa - just the civil war's that seem to rage across it continually.

[DodgyAgent]

Then we close our markets to them, and any markets they can compete on they're stuffed cause we subsidise our markets so heavily

.

Spot on snaw. But instead of knocking down these barriers (far more beneficial than cancelling debt) everyone is obsessed with "giving handouts" to Africa.

So snaw couple of questions:

why is it that other countries have prospered even though they were colonised? (which country has never been colonised?)

Why do you assume that these post colonial countries are the worse for having been colonised?

It is you who are making assumptions

[snaw]

Oh FFS learn to read.

Nowhere did I say the economic problem's were caused by colonisation, just the civil wars.

I've not even said colonisation is a bad thing per se, but you wouldn't notice that, would you.

[snaw]

It is you who are making assumptions

BTW There is something sublimley ironic about you making a statement on my assumptions, based wrongly, on your assumptions of what I assume.

Sums you up really.

[DodgyAgent]

most of the problems in Africa have western roots of some description

I

said we're the root of most of Africa's problems, which is pretty much true for most of the continent - whether it be crippling debt's, or artificial boundries/countries we left behind

.

we colonised most of Africa during the 'Scramble for Africa'. When we left we left behind artificial countries, and boundries between countries - most of the civil wars can be attributed to that simple fact.

And then you said

Nowhere did I say the economic problem's were caused by colonisation, just the civil wars.

I will of course accept that on your first two quotes that you did not say colonisation specifically. However by implicatrion it seems a fair interpretation that colonisation is in your view to blame for the ills of africa. In your quote (above) it is clear that you have made the link between colonisation and civil war.

So now answer my questions

[DodgyAgent]

I've not even said colonisation is a bad thing per se, but you wouldn't notice that, would you

You are now backtracking. Earlier you said that Africas problems are caused by the West. Now given that the West's influence is manifested mainly through colonisation, and that you said that a feature of colonisation was that borders were rearranged, which in turn caused civil wars, which is usually the most effective way to destroy economic activity etc etc...

In which case what precisely are you saying?

[snaw]

DA,

I was responding to MM's statement about civil war in the Congo and African nations butchering thier own people. I talk about problems in Africa and I specifically mention civil wars in reference to colonisation.

Which part of this do you fail to understand? I didn't make a link between colonisation and the economic woes off Africa for a reason, I don't think there is one.

So now answer my questions

Who do you think you're talking to, that I'll jump to your commands?

Answer your own questions, they're your assumption - not mine, however you try to twist it.

[snaw]

You are now backtracking. Earlier you said that Africas problems are caused by the West. Now given that the West's influence is manifested mainly through colonisation, and that you said that a feature of colonisation was that borders were rearranged, which in turn caused civil wars, which is usually the most effective way to destroy economic activity etc etc...

Eh? No I'm not - Africa's problems have many roots in the west like I said. I even went to the trouble of listing them - I don't remember saying there was an economic link with colonisation - just civil wars. I do remember mentioning loans and closed trade markets though - did you read that bit or just gloss over as usual?

Colonisation, was a force for good in some instances - it created stability and implemened good government in some countries. Understandably enough, the colonised countries weren't particularily happy being ruled by a foreign power. That's not backtracking - that's what I think. I don'#t belong to your school of black and white definitions in life DA so don't try to squeeze me into your limited world.

[DodgyAgent]

I don't remember saying there was an economic link with colonisation - just civil wars

As civil wars destroy economies, and as you argued that colonisation caused civil wars it does'nt take Einstein to work out that colonisation is bad for economies.


You said:

Considering you could make a great case for saying that most of the problems in Africa have western roots of some description,

You also said:

I

I said we're the root of most of Africa's problems, which is pretty much true for most of the continent - whether it be crippling debt's, or artificial boundries/countries we left behind

It is pretty clear where you were laying the blame for Africa's problems. As colonisation was the main method through which we and others exerted our evil influence to Africa your point of view was (I use the word "was") unambiguous.

My point was that I was questioning the assumption that Africa was necessarily worse off under our influence (manifested initially through colonialism). You have now backtracked by accepting in your words:

Colonisation, was a force for good in some instances - it created stability and implemened good government in some countries

Which takes us neatly back to where the blame lies for Africas problems. So mailman's point, namely, Africans are responsible for themselves is a valid one which considering he is a kiwi makes your contradictory point of view pretty stupid

[DodgyAgent]

to be fair

I do remember mentioning loans and closed trade markets though

And to be fair snaw I totally agree with you apportioning some of the blame for Africa's problems on the inaccessability of Western markets together with "dumping of EU surplus subsidised foods".

I do not agree with the consensus on debt relief. It was the governments that borrowed the money. If debt is cancelled what stops these countries borrowing again? Cancelling debt relieves pressure from incumbent regimes which has the effect of strengthening them. and what sort of message does cancelling debt send out to countries that work hard to pay their debts? And who is going to lend money to these countries in the future?