Would you have gone to university if you had to pay for it?

[Mich the Tester]

I wonder how many renowned modern authors don't have maths at that level.

I'm not sure school-level maths teaches intelligence or logical thinking, it just teaches you how to do school-level maths exams. I think English (or your local equivalent) is better as a general "not dumb" qualification - you have to be able to comprehend material, analyse it and structure a thought-out response.

Agree that the local language is essential, but I think both maths and local language are essential. Perhaps maths does just teach you to pass an exam, which is a discipline in itself, but it at least should help to teach logical thinking and critical analysis, if it's taught well.

As for the authors and other artists without maths at secondary school level; these are professions where talent plays a big role. A degree is not mandatory for being a succesful author or artist; those with talent and application can succeed without. But I still feel that the degree should demonstrate that you're able to use different approaches to thinking and understanding, which should include some philosophical basis, perhaps including religious thinking, and some scientific or logical basis; the arts require empathy and understanding how other people think and feel, so it's important to learn about many different ways of thinking.

[d000hg]

I don't disagree that some maths should remain a core... but saying we need old O-level or better levels is a bit much IMHO. If we roughly equate that to a modern AS-level, it's just taking GCSE stuff and extending it a bit. Basic trig and algebra to show you can do the concepts is enough.

[Mich the Tester]

Basic trig and algebra to show you can do the concepts is enough.

You're probably right there for the arts students, but I'm talking about people who want to go to university and get a degree without even knowing what those two words mean.

[scooterscot]

Throughout university every summer I'd cut the grass at the local cemetery earning a net just shy of my tax allowance.

That ~£6k, half of which were my fees at the time and the remainder went to my bedsit! I came out the other end with only £2k of debt.

I recall fellow students flying off with the folks to the far side of the world while I was slogging my guts out.

Studying is not easy, I think it is fully right you should pay for your education. Whether the quality is there is another matter. Some courses / fees out there are blatant Alan Sugar style profiteering and nothing to do with further education.

[Bacchus]

No 1 son is working towards medicine

It's going to be bloody hard to get there and it's going to cost a fortune to get through, but he will make a very good GP (I have a very low opinion of the average GP), and hopefully he will be able to move to his ideal specialisation

Luckily his mum is minted so she can foot the lion's share of the bills

[MrRobin]

Yes I would have still gone.

It's not an upfront bill, though, is it? It's a loan which is repayable when your earnings go over £21k

[d000hg]

You're probably right there for the arts students, but I'm talking about people who want to go to university and get a degree without even knowing what those two words mean.

Well here GCSE maths is a requirement at school and you won't easily get into uni without a pass of some sort

You could get into an art college but that is far more vocational and I'd argue that's fair enough.

[Arturo Bassick]

Yes I would have still gone.

It's not an upfront bill, though, is it? It's a loan which is repayable when your earnings go over £21k

At 18 years old you would be looking at 3 * 9K for tuition fees alone plus other expenses some student will be looking at around 35K (assuming your parents cant afford it). Would you really contemplate that when you were that old? Imagine being 21 with that amount of debt before you consider buying a car or a house. The government needs to encourage business to get involved with the funding of education.

[MrRobin]

At 18 years old you would be looking at 3 * 9K for tuition fees alone plus other expenses some student will be looking at around 35K (assuming your parents cant afford it). Would you really contemplate that when you were that old? Imagine being 21 with that amount of debt before you consider buying a car or a house. The government needs to encourage business to get involved with the funding of education.

Yes. Absolutely, definitely still would have gone.

A student loan is not the same as a credit card or a mortgage or a bank loan. There is nothing to pay back until you can afford it. Millions of graduates still go and get mortgages or cars whilst still paying back their student loan so your argument there is moot.

Yes, it would be nice to see more bursaries / scholarships from businesses, a bit like how the armed forces will pay for trainee officer's fees, but then students could potentially get 'stuck' in long employment contracts (forces = 7 years)

[Mich the Tester]

Well here GCSE maths is a requirement at school and you won't easily get into uni without a pass of some sort

You could get into an art college but that is far more vocational and I'd argue that's fair enough.

Good, and long may it stay that way. Sometime in the 80s they dropped the maths requirement for degree level qualifications in Holland and since then there's been a growth of numpties, busybodies and 'communication advisors' invading every line of work outside of the really technical or scientific stuff.