Was it Labour Meltdown?

[AlfredJPruffock]

"Mr Brown remains a competent and shrewd politician". Huh? Is he really? Whatever his competence, he's still a to55er. How can someone like him spout forth about how SME's are the growth engine of this country, and yet he's looking at closing IR35 loopholes. Where's the support Gordo? If he becomes PM, I will feel so sorry for the next Chancellor: he/she will be nothing more than Gordo's puppet, since he's been at Treasury for so long. And he's so smug, gawd I hate him ...I'm off to the pond to cool down.

I come not to praise New Labour
But to bury them


As readers of this board will vouch I am probaby one of the most vocal critics of New Labour.

However it would be churlish of me not to credit Brown for his overall competence as Chancellor.

The management of the economy has been Labours downfall more than once before, yet Brown has proved himself more than capable in this respect .

I would venture that had Brown not been Chancellor Labour would not have held power more than one term.

[wendigo100]

That's the perception Alf. Truth is, it does not take a very clever man to increase taxes, generate reams of ill-defined legislation, and increase borrowing. Essentially that is all Brown has done.

Look ten years hence, when today's "middle England" realise that:

* national and personal debts will be even bigger but have to be paid back

* their private and company pensions are only half what they would have got up until 1997

* because of means testing they shouldn't have bothered to save anything at all as the feckless get better state pensions than them

* nobody understands the most complex tax system in the world, administered by myriad, necessarily-complex systems that do not work properly

Brown has taxed and borrowed simply to stand still, which is his definition of "a stable economy".

[Lucifer Box]

That's the perception Alf. Truth is, it does not take a very clever man to increase taxes, generate reams of ill-defined legislation, and increase borrowing. Essentially that is all Brown has done.

True, but it does take a clever man to do it in such a way that the mass of the population either:

a) Don't notice, or
b) Don't care, or
c) Positively welcome it as "a good thing".

He is very, very clever, within the parameters of what was required of him as a Labour Chancellor tasked with securing re-election for the party, as distinct from being clever on behalf of the long-term benefit of the country.

[DimPrawn]

That's a good point.

The only criteria of "successful government" (from a governments perspective) is gaining and holding onto power. Nothing else matters.

If it takes a few million illegals, a few war crimes, a lot of taxes and control of the media, then so be it.

HTH.

Tone

[Lucifer Box]

Spot on, DP. Gordon Brown has carried out his brief perfectly, and with great cunning and inventiveness.

[AlfredJPruffock]

That's a good point.

The only criteria of "successful government" (from a governments perspective) is gaining and holding onto power. Nothing else matters.

If it takes a few million illegals, a few war crimes, a lot of taxes and control of the media, then so be it.

HTH.

Tone

Aye DP

You got it ...You Got It !!!

BTW arent you the same DP who used to work with or for MS, I recall that your postings were mainly technical in their nature or at least LINUX v Microsoft topics,if so has this board perhaps radicalised your opinion in a political sense ?

Be that as it may, you may find the following of interest in terms of Statesmanship ...

It is this focus on practical success by any means, even at the expense of traditional moral values, that earned Machiavelli's scheme a reputation for ruthlessness, deception, and cruelty.



Full link is here ...

http://www.philosophypages.com/ph/macv.htm

Extract ...

Machiavelli originally wrote Principe (The Prince) (1513) in hopes of securing the favor of the ruling Medici family, and he deliberately made its claims provocative.

The Prince is an intensely practical guide to the exercise of raw political power over a Renaissance principality. Allowing for the unpredictable influence of fortune, Machiavelli argued that it is primarily the character or vitality or skill of the individual leader that determines the success of any state.

The book surveys various bold means of acquiring and maintaining the principality and evaluates each of them solely by reference to its likelihood of augmenting the glory of the prince while serving the public interest.

It is this focus on practical success by any means, even at the expense of traditional moral values, that earned Machiavelli's scheme a reputation for ruthlessness, deception, and cruelty.

[AlfredJPruffock]

That's the perception Alf. Truth is, it does not take a very clever man to increase taxes, generate reams of ill-defined legislation, and increase borrowing. Essentially that is all Brown has done.

Look ten years hence, when today's "middle England" realise that:

* national and personal debts will be even bigger but have to be paid back

* their private and company pensions are only half what they would have got up until 1997

* because of means testing they shouldn't have bothered to save anything at all as the feckless get better state pensions than them

* nobody understands the most complex tax system in the world, administered by myriad, necessarily-complex systems that do not work properly

Brown has taxed and borrowed simply to stand still, which is his definition of "a stable economy".

Aye W

I dont doubt these valid points you have made, yet a politicians concerns are not what the electorate may think of their work in ten years, which is a pity, but their chances of currently retaining power and Browns policies, like it or not, have won the backing of the electorate.

A good example of the above realpolitic is that precious little seems to be done to address global warming as this will be viewed as an issue for some other politician down the line.

BTW Im not Middle England as such but from obsolete working class heavy industrial type West of Scotland turned happy go lucky contractor.