The Battle of Britain

[MrMark]

2) Naval superiority ensuring that the Germans would never have been able to deliver/support any troops they got on the ground

Yet they were able to invade and conquer Norway, Greece and Crete? If the airs had been ceded to the Luftwaffe, the Germans would have been able to invade regardless of the British navy - I reckon the majority of the battleships (if committed to the English channel) would have struggled to last two days at that time.

[EternalOptimist]

Far more pivotal. Either of them could have been lost and the Germans would still have been defeated in the end. Stalin would have seen to that. Might have cost a few million more German and Russian lives, but hey ho. Lives were cheap that end of Europe anyway.
No, had Britain not held out, and become effectively a base for the Yank and Commonwealth forces to come to Russia's aid, the result might have been very different indeed.

HTH

Stalingrad -
Germans - 'must try to keep the reds from forming a line. must try to pocket and make them surrender, just like last year. make them spread out so they cant use planes or tanks. strech them so far that we can get south to the resources'
Russkis - 'We cant fight them in the open, they batter us. We dont care if we lose cities or resources. we just need a big battle in a city, ANY city. Leningrad, Moscow, Stalingrad. In a city their advantages are neutralised. THEN we can counterattack.
result - Reds 1 germans 0


Kursk -
Germans - 'The reds have a solid line now. our only chance is to pocket them, just like last year. We dont care if they are fortified, because we have the shwerpunkt. we will surround a million of them and make them surrender.
Russians - 'We still cannot fight them in the open. But we have a lot of big defensive AT guns. let us hang our butt out and invite them to pincer it off. If we win we win, if we lose we have next year

result - reds 1 germans 0

[dang65]

In reality, our fighter pilots were generally advised to steer clear of dogfights with the Jerry fighters, and concentrate their efforts on the bombers.
Strategically, it was an immensely pragmatic and sensible course of action, as we could not afford the losses that the numerically superior Luftwaffe could have endured.
Not sure the Battle of Britain is always depicted this accurately, but I suppose "What the Heck? We won so we will decide how it all panned out!!"

There are some historians (perhaps the ones one might label "revisionist") who believe that the Battle Of Britain was unwinable for the Germans.

The theory is explained in this article (especially in the section "The Advantage of Defence"). It does make you think a bit. The legend of The Few was created at a time when propaganda and morale were a very high priority, and it's never gone away. On the other hand, you can feel a bit uncomfortable if you read too many sob stories about the Germans and find yourself starting to feel sorry for them.

[AtW]

If I ever feel the need to attribute the value "0" to an entity, you are always at the top of any prospective list alexei.

And you are on top of my list mate!

[shaunbhoy]

Yet they were able to invade and conquer Norway, Greece and Crete? If the airs had been ceded to the Luftwaffe, the Germans would have been able to invade regardless of the British navy - I reckon the majority of the battleships (if committed to the English channel) would have struggled to last two days at that time.

In order to support any ground offensive with any realistic chance of success, the germans could not have done this with airdrops alone. They would have needed to have some port facilities available to them for the delivery of sufficient supplies, and would have needed to be able to sustain a delivery corridor across the English channel. They would never have been able to achieve either of these things, as all ports in that region would simply have been razed to the ground. The Channel would have been protected by far more resources than just Battleships which, in fact, would have been fairly unsuitable for the task. Mines, torpedo boats, submarines etc. would all have been more effective at scuppering the Kriegsmarine's attempts at maintaining a supply line, never mind the air cover and land-based gun batteries.
Add to that the fact that they had insufficient landing craft available for the journey across the channel anyway, and Operation Sealion was pretty much doomed from the start.

[EternalOptimist]

Yet they were able to invade and conquer Norway, Greece and Crete? If the airs had been ceded to the Luftwaffe, the Germans would have been able to invade regardless of the British navy - I reckon the majority of the battleships (if committed to the English channel) would have struggled to last two days at that time.

There are so many points - no disrespect mrmark

Norway - amphib and paradrop with little or no naval or air resistance, plus a lot of pro german sentiment

Crete - a German victory, but a massive catasrophe for them. very heavy fallshirmjager casualties, and tens of thousands of Italians drowned when the troopships were sunk by the RN

Sealion - the brits pulling back the RAF, does not mean there is no raf on dday. They simply fly down south.
It's not the 15 battleships that disrupt the landings, its the 1,500 small ships that suddenly appear from nowhere (because you havnt destroyed them because you have been concentrating on Coventry) Cruisers, Destroyers, Corvettes, gun boats etc

[AtW]

Add to that the fact that they had insufficient landing craft available for the journey across the channel anyway, and Operation Sealion was pretty much doomed from the start.

And what if they offered Scotand to be independent with a capital in London?

[shaunbhoy]

And what if they offered Scotand to be independent with a capital in London?

You been at the Vodka alexei?

[AtW]

You been at the Vodka alexei?

Not today....

[EternalOptimist]

And what if they offered Scotand to be independent with a capital in London?

its a valid point. the Germans did deal with sovereign states, such as Eire, and entities that had a strong claim, like the Ukraine
they never considered Scotland