These people who support Raoul Moat and think he's some kind of hero ....

[sasguru]

Wunderbar!! And no mention of "village idiots" or "cretins" either. The therapy must be working!

Well if you prefer to be called a dumbkopf rather than a village idiot or cretin, I am happy to oblige.

For Milan that description is a compliment as compared to his natural state.

[shaunbhoy]

Well if you prefer to be called a dumbkopf rather than a village idiot or cretin, I am happy to oblige.

Now stop showing off just because your vocabulary has had a 10-word upgrade. The clapped-out bubble chamber that arbitrarily arranges them is still in use, and making a rather expensive sounding "clack" with each operation too.

[Peoplesoft bloke]

There is a strong current of resentment towards the government, authority and towards people in power by the millions of underclass in this country. It is reaching breaking point and god knows what will happen when the whole thing explodes. The rioting that will follow will be the worse for centuries.

What a load of tosh.

[doodab]

I don't entirely agree that the opportunities to escape are really limited. Britain, as with the rest of northern Europe, provides free education to children and heavily subsidized education at a very high standard for adults. Adults can even get a very good degree, starting with a foundation course, on the OU, with little educational background. I think the trouble is more cultural and behavioural; if you grow up surrounded by people who look down on those who study hard, work hard and make a go of it, you're going to be under social pressure to conform to patterns of behaviour that are unlikely to lead to a happy and succesful life.

I think it's hard to argue that socio-economic status of the family isn't a major factor in determining peoples chances in later life. Free basic education is, as you say, provided to everyone, hence it provides no advantage. Gaining a "heavily subsidised" higher education is still more difficult for someone who receives no economic support from their family. I'm not saying it can't be done, but someone whose parents subsidise them has a much easier time and is more likely to do well at university, than someone who has to earn a living while they study.

As regards the attitude of individuals, it is certainly a factor, as you say it's a cultural thing, people are growing up with a "them and us" attitude and the perception that they are not full members of society with the opportunities that it does offer, because that is what the learn from their environment, be that their parents, peer group, or from a media and wider society that labels them "chavs" and treats them like a nuisance. I don't know where it came from, perhaps it's the residue of the class system, perhaps it's related to the widespread unemployment and economic failures of the 70s and 80s but it's now in it's second or third generation and it doesn't seem likely to go away without a concerted effort to tackle the problem.

[Mich the Tester]

Mich, are Tester's rates really so high or is your wealth inherited ?

just wondering.

Milan.

Rates are OK right now, but I made a few bob in the past on a software company that I helped to form and then sold my share; nothing huge, but enough to be fairly comfortable.

[SallyAnne]

There is a strong current of resentment towards the government, authority and towards people in power by the millions of underclass in this country. It is reaching breaking point and god knows what will happen when the whole thing explodes. The rioting that will follow will be the worse for centuries.

Sense?!! On CUK?!!! Never in the world!!!

You are so right on this one. Most people on this board (soft, shandy drinking, southern poshies) haven't got the foggiest fecking idea of what goes on in the council estates accross the UK.

Moat was from the same place as I grew up believe it or not. His kids go to the same primary school that I went to (so they're destined to grow up with a sooper education two like). He went to the same comp as I did apparently (although I find it hard to believe I wouldn't have remembered someone called fecking Raoul Then again - called Raoul, ginger, at Kenton Comp...no wonder he turned out the way he did!! )

Anyway...pretty much everyone from round those parts are on Moats side - they hate the police and worship Doormen. They're a different breed of people - completely alien to most of us. Some of my own family...jesus man, my cousin was on first name terms with him and keeps posting RIP messages on Facebook, sobbing her heart out!!

I dont like to knock them - after all I'm talking about generation after generation of my family too - people who never left the area. To whom, getting on a 30 minutes bus ride would warrant sandwiches for the journey, and making sure your neighbours came in to pull the curtains over so that the house wouldn't get turned over! It's just a different world.

Fortunately when the revolts come, they'll be too thick to stage anything meaningful, so I wouldn't worry. They just want a hero - and by "hero" I simply mean someone on the tele who they can relate to.
Plus, all his mates still run the doors down the Bigg Market in Newcastle, so to be on Moatys facebook page is like a badge of honour down there.

Fecking inbreads.

I'd like to raise a glass to Ma & Pa Sallyanne who shed blood and sweat to get me and my 2 brothers out of that fecking dump when I was 13, and giving us an actual chance at life.

[sasguru]

Most people on this board (soft, shandy drinking, southern poshies) haven't got the foggiest fecking idea of what goes on in the council estates accross the UK.

.

hard, whisky drinking, southern poshies.

HTH

[shaunbhoy]

I don't know where it came from

It came from the devious manipulation of the Welfare system by lazy, unscrupulous, feckless, workshy, nefarious, sponging layabouts. And it has been occurring for many years under the stupefied gaze of the sandal-wearing, Grauniad-dependent, lentil-munching, liberal do-gooders that seemed to have infiltrated every last segment of what passes for scrutiny of our failed social system!!

[doodab]

One of the things the British governing classes have proven good at over the years is giving "the people" just a big enough slice of the pie to prevent things from boiling over. That balance seems to have shifted in my lifetime. Disregarding the "we love Raoul" element, there seem to be a lot of people who feel that they are excluded from or marginalized by the political process, or that big business has too much power and that they don't get a say in the way things are run, but as long as they are doing OK they aren't going to make too much of a fuss.

I personally am southern but not posh, I grew up on a council estate, my grandfather was a policeman and I (mostly) respect the law and the machinery of the state. I've been in a riot, but I didn't start it. That's about as close as I've come to being involved in politics. I'd like to get involved, but it seems to me that unless you are fairly rich or prepared to align yourself to a party and play the game for ever and a day then you are, essentially, excluded.

[doodab]

It came from the devious manipulation of the Welfare system by lazy, unscrupulous, feckless, workshy, nefarious, sponging layabouts. And it has been occurring for many years under the stupefied gaze of the sandal-wearing, Grauniad-dependent, lentil-munching, liberal do-gooders that seemed to have infiltrated every last segment of what passes for scrutiny of our failed social system!!

Surely when a gearbox fails you blame the designers, not the cogs.

It seems to me that after it finally implodes the welfare state will be seen, like communism, as a failed experiment in social engineering. But to blame it's victims for being human is inhumane.

Most of these "feckless, workshy, sponging layabouts" would work their arse off for £200 a day, but I know plenty of people, including me and probably you, who would choose to lie in bed rather than get up and work (a far harder job than the one I have) for the £46.40 that's on offer in the world of minimum wage.