Do you think you have free will?

[EternalOptimist]

You don't need many rules. With only a few simple conditional rules, adding perhaps 'take a right in afternoon' and 'take a left in the morning', 'take a left if there's a tree on the left, and a right if not', and 'do not turn into a road where there is a dogturd' and 'unless the last turn in that direction was crap', and several repetitions you would achieve a chaotic situation where the end result varies wildly according to tiny variations in the starting conditions.

no, you are bringing judgement into the equation.

forget judgement
forget values
forget a priori

[TimberWolf]

no, you are bringing judgement into the equation.

forget judgement
forget values
forget a priori

[doodab]

forget the road.

the road was a paradigm. a model. a structure.


ok, you have a decision, a or b

where a is the left road. etc

and there is no a priori, nothing to base a judgement on

no road
no judgement


determinism will always choose a, free will will sometimes pick b

How could you tell true free will from a sufficiently complex determinism that sometimes chose b?

I think their are two subtly related questions here.

a) are the laws of physics deterministic (in the sense of hidden variable theories & low-level deterministic chaos .vs. quantum reality being truly truly non-deterministic)

b) do deterministic physical laws imply a "less free" free will than we would have under non-deterministic physical laws?

Now to my mind the answer to b is no, because a mind whose decisions are determined by truly non-deterministic processes over which it has no influence is no more "free" than a mind operating according to deterministic rules. Unpredictable, yes, but free, no.

[EternalOptimist]

How could you tell true free will from a sufficiently complex determinism that sometimes chose b?

.

easily.

you take the mind bogglingly complex system that generates the illusion of free will and you remove one molecule

you keep on doing that until you have a deterministic system that always chooses a.

[doodab]

easily.

you take the mind bogglingly complex system that generates the illusion of free will and you remove one molecule

you keep on doing that until you have a deterministic system that always chooses a.

So basically you propose to suck your brain out through a straw in order to prove that you don't have free will?

[EternalOptimist]

So basically you propose to suck your brain out through a straw in order to prove that you don't have free will?

In an alien came down in a flying saucer, and decided to zap London rather than New York, it might be because of free will, it might not.

this is not a human question

[doodab]

In an alien came down in a flying saucer, and decided to zap London rather than New York, it might be because of free will, it might not.

this is not a human question

But is the decision due to free will if it's dependent on a non deterministic quantum process over which the alien has no control?

Sure, you might not get the same outcome every time, but that doesn't make it an act of free will, any more than the quantum process itself is an act of free will.

[Mich the Tester]

No, mine cost me more than a thousand euros. Bloody solicitors, they’re like contractors but more expensive.

But is the decision due to free will if it's dependent on a non deterministic quantum process over which the alien has no control?

Sure, you might not get the same outcome every time, but that doesn't make it an act of free will, any more than the quantum process itself is an act of free will.

This all demonstrates that my original interpretation of the question makes it much easier to answer.

[EternalOptimist]

all you are doing doodab, is heaping more ofuscation on the original premise

i would sit here for hours defining exactly what quantum mechanic has to be where to make a proper experiment.

the beauty of a thought experiment is that you can get round all that by saying


if everything remains the same or
all things being equal


so all things being equal
a determinist will choose a every time
a freewill will not

[Mich the Tester]

I think EO’s brain has overheated. Either that or he’s had just had his tenth pint of the afternoon.