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[The Lone Gunman]

ALM you have misunderstood the commandment - it refers to making of images and worshipping them. Wearing a cross or having a picture of Jesus on the Church wall is a piece of art and I for one do not worship that - its a piece of wood, metal etc!!!! the buddist example shows exactly what the commandment is referring to. An idol is an object of worship or a false god(dictionary definition).

There is some dispute as to how much of the wording of the original commandment has changed isnt there? A number of scholars believe the "not worshiping" part was added later and the original just said Thou shalt not create idols or graven images.

Which version do you subscribe to? Can you point us to a definitive Bible?

[ALM]

ALM you have misunderstood the commandment - it refers to making of images and worshipping them. Wearing a cross or having a picture of Jesus on the Church wall is a piece of art and I for one do not worship that - its a piece of wood, metal etc!!!! the buddist example shows exactly what the commandment is referring to. An idol is an object of worship or a false god(dictionary definition).

I beg to differ Chico. If you ask a Hindu if he is worshipping the idols in his temple he too will say 'of course not they're just a symbol'. The fact remains that they too enter their places of worship and pray while knelt down before an image or statue of their deity. I don't see much of a difference between you and them. Besides the 2nd commandment reads:

You shall not make for yourself a graven image, or any likeness of anything that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath


It's very difficult to reconcile the above with the images found in most Churches. Seems like out and out disobedience to me. Perhaps you should adjust your literalist stance on the commandments. Otherwise you’re in the same boat as they rest of us evildoers mate.

[Chico]

Ok I mostly use the NIV translation and it says

Exodus 20

"4 "You shall not make for yourself an idol in the form of anything in heaven above or on the earth beneath or in the waters below. 5 You shall not bow down to them or worship them; for I, the LORD your God, am a jealous God, punishing the children for the sin of the fathers to the third and fourth generation of those who hate me, 6 but showing love to a thousand {generations} of those who love me and keep my commandments".

taking verse 4 in isolation it gives the impression you cannot make any images however even there note the word idol. Verse 5 qualifies it for the avoidance of doubt.

King James (seen by many as the definitive translation) has it as

4Thou shalt not make unto thee any graven image, or any likeness of any thing that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth.

5Thou shalt not bow down thyself to them, nor serve them: for I the LORD thy God am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children unto the third and fourth generation of them that hate me;

[Chico]

ALM are you Jewish...?

Anyway according to the dictionary a graven image is

An idol or fetish carved in wood or stone.

n : a material effigy that is worshipped as a god; "thou shalt not make unto thee any graven image"; "money was his god" [syn: idol, god]

Deut. 27:15; Ps. 97:7 (Heb. pesel), refers to the household gods of idolaters.
"Every nation and city had its own gods...Yet every family had its separate
household or tutelary god."

If an item whatever it is, crucifix, picture of the Virgin Mary etc becomes an item of worship then that commandment has been disobeyed otherwise it is just a piece of art.

[ALM]

If an item whatever it is, crucifix, picture of the Virgin Mary etc becomes an item of worship then that commandment has been disobeyed otherwise it is just a piece of art.

So if you kneel down and pray before a statue of Mary I'd say that's a form of worship ... wouldn't you?

[Chico]

Hey John Paul 2 can account for himself thank you very much and for the record I am not a catholic.

[ALM]

Hey John Paul 2 can account for himself thank you very much and for the record I am not a catholic.

So you would agree that he is disoebying the 2nd commandment in doing so?

[sasguru]

I think we have conclusively proved that at least 2 of the 10 commandments are a little vague.

According to Chico:

(1) Apparently you ARE allowed to kill: in self defence, to remove dictators and to protect the weak (collateral damage i.e. killing of the innocent is also allowed as it's unavoidable)
(2) You can have graven images in your places of worship, as long as they are "art" and you don't bow down to them.

Chico, Thanks for explaning to us that the 10 commandments are ambiguous.

Edited to clarify.

[AlfredJPruffock]

I think we have conclusively proved that at least 2 of the 10 commandments are a little vague.

According to Chico:

(1) Apparently you ARE allowed to kill: in self defence, to remove dictators and to protect the weak (collateral damage i.e. killing of the innocent is also allowed as it's unavoidable)
(2) You can have graven images in your places of worship, as long as they are "art" and you don't bow down to them.

Chico, Thanks for explaning to us that the 10 commandments are ambiguous.

Edited to clarify.

Tut Tut SG

Of course one can kill if one simply feels like it and is blessed accordingly.

In legal terms its called a margin of flexiblity.

In Divine Terms, is called the Small Print of the 10 Commandments.

Now , where did I put me Axe ?

[The Lone Gunman]

Of course, it doesnt matter how good you are if Grandad was an idolater!