Acupuncture - have you tried it ?

[NotAllThere]

That wasn't what I was getting at!

ooo do it again...

[snaw]

Which is perfectly fine. So long as you don't try to treat cancer by buying a new handbag.

If I went to a Dr, and suggested accupuncture as a cancer treatment then I'd change Doctors. But having one suggest it for muscular pain didn't seem quite so outrageous, and you know what - it worked.

I almost resent the implication you seem to be making that I'm so weak minded that I'd try a treatment I was very sceptical of before doing it, and come away all cured etc and think it was all in my head. It wasn't.

I wasn't there to conduct a scientific experiment, I was there to treat muscular pain, and a huge muscular lump in my back, for which scientifically proven pain killers etc weren't helping much beyond turning me into a vegetable.

And no, that's not me arguing against science. Just stating that it worked, and it wasn't cause I imagined I felt better, I was better.

[minestrone]

But the scientific trials have shown, empirically, that if acupuncture does work, the effect is slight.



wft does that mean? Something like "Becasue we do not understand something does not mean that it should work as we expect it to be scientifically testable"?

So what you are saying is that you will only believe something works when someone has proof derived from first principles?

[FSM with Cheddar]

It is scientific arrogance to think that because you do not understand how something works that it will not work. Acupuncture actually has a very good reputation with doctors, esp for joint and muscle pain.

Yeah I totally agree with you. The Flying Spaghetti Monster changes all scientific results to look the way he wants them to. He does this because it is funny.

Acupuncture doesn't work, however sometimes (around the same % as the placebo effect) he changes the results to make it look like it did work.

Science pah. Obey your noodly master.

[FSM with Cheddar]

So what you are saying is that you will only believe something works when someone has proof derived from first principles?

oh, oh, we are getting closer to a religious debate.

Can I start please?

Mark Chapter 16 vs 15 to 19 Linky

they [Whoever believes and is baptized] will pick up snakes with their hands; and when they drink deadly poison, it will not hurt them at all

Do you believe that one without first principles?

[snaw]

Yeah I totally agree with you. The Flying Spaghetti Monster changes all scientific results to look the way he wants them to. He does this because it is funny.

Acupuncture doesn't work, however sometimes (around the same % as the placebo effect) he changes the results to make it look like it did work.

Science pah. Obey your noodly master.

Are you a Zeity sockpuppet?

[Moscow Mule]

I've tried acupuncture in conjunction with a bit of massage from a wrinkly old chinese bloke to resolve a problem with my knee.

It worked ok, but I've no proof that the pain relief was caused by the acupuncture or by the muscle manipulation - I just know there was pain relief.

FWIW, I also use a sport masseuse who can release pressure in muscles just by holding them in the right place (it's really quite an amazing effect). I can see how that might be related to a similar release of pressure in acupuncture but again, no proof that acupuncture relieves pain.

[TimberWolf]

Acupuncture works well on shin lumps. A bucket load of clear fluid sprays out and then you is cured. It may depend on the variety of lump you have though, mine came up following a hard knock. Size of an egg it was.

[NotAllThere]

So what you are saying is that you will only believe something works when someone has proof derived from first principles?

No. Not at all. Why do you think I am saying that? Is English not your first language?

Let me spell it out. Scientific trials have provided empirical evidence that supports the hypothesis that acupuncture is effective in pain. However, the evidence isn't that strong. The trials so far haven't produced an uneqivocal "yes, it's effective". If you go for acupuncture - good luck to you. But don't try and say that it's great and it really works.

For homeopathy there is overwhelming evidence that it is no better than placebo. If you go for that, you are stupid, ignorant, gullible and credulous. Just like creationists. Only creationism hasn't killed as many people as homeopathy.

[NotAllThere]

...FWIW, I also use a sport masseuse who can release pressure in muscles just by holding them in the right place (it's really quite an amazing effect). I can see how that might be related to a similar release of pressure in acupuncture but again, no proof that acupuncture relieves pain.

I had physio treatment after a slipped disk in my neck. Great stuff. And I'll readily concede that sticking needles into muscles and the subsequent manipulation might work. It's all the crap about Chi and meridians that's just "woo".