Tories on Trident

[AtW]

Anyway, the commies can track them anyway, their satellites track magnetic disturbances in the sea. Sadly it was the west that found that out and a spy sold the info to the Chinese.

Rubbish: Soviet space program was very extensive in numbers, however quality of it (satellites did not last long) and electronics of 60s don't allow such things to do.

Submarines can camp under ice while it's still there anyway.

[minestrone]

Rubbish: Soviet space program was very extensive in numbers, however quality of it (satellites did not last long) and electronics of 60s don't allow such things to do.

Submarines can camp under ice while it's still there anyway.

Are Russia communist? You should really read posts before you reply.

[AlfredJPruffock]

Are Russia communist? You should really read posts before you reply.

I think Atw is refereing to the Russian Space Program pre 1990 - now Russia has an advanced program and has International projects such as International Space Station ( I was in Mosow IKI in 1991 for the intial phase of this project) and uses Bakinour for certain ESA satellite launches.

Russia may no longer be communist but the USA and the UK now have socialist economic systems following the nationalising of the banks.

I do not know if the Russian banks have now been nationalised following the crises - perhaps Atw can clairfy.

[Menelaus]

We've got a massive, massive problem with overspending in the public sector and - even though I've met Liam Fox when he held a Glasgow alumni reception at Parliament a couple of years ago - I must disagree with him on the replacement for Trident.

Estimates of the cost of replacing Trident are of the order of 200bn. That's 200bn that we genuinely can't afford to spend - and there are other things on the drawing board that could be scrapped too, including:

- HMS Prince of Wales / HMS Queen Elizabeth II (aircraft carriers for power projection - we're no longer a "world power" and there's a good argument that we haven't been for years)
- A400M air-to-air refuelling project

ALL capital projects in the MoD should be subject to major intervention and have to prove its' worth. We should retract into a Swedish model of the armed forces - ie, peacekeeping and national defence only.

Equally, however contentious this might be, there's an argument that massive reduction in capital projects could give us a Gorbachev-style "peace dividend" from the end of the Cold War.

Many years ago when I was but a baby soldier we held a discussion group where we concluded (in a wholly un-PC manner) that Gorbachev could with some validity claim that the Cold War was a draw - for no other reason that he said "we're not playing anymore" and engaged in unilateral action, irrespective of what Reagan did.

Finally, I heard a worrying statistic this morning that 20% of all civil servants work for MoD. A smaller defence estate will mean the ability to remove a whole swathe of uncivil servants.

[AlfredJPruffock]

Interesting points and well thought out.

I think you'll find that Liam's ambitions for the Trident upgrade will be over-ruled by Camerons Austerity Drive - we simply cannot afford this level of public spending for the nebulous benefits that the upgrade would in theory offer - again as long as we are a member of NATO we have little to fear of 'nuclear blackmail'.

I quute :

We will have to take account of the economic train wreck that we would inherit if we come to Government next year and that would of course be very difficult," he said.

[AtW]

Are Russia communist?

Yes it is (Soviet that is, not communist - it's worse thing than communism actually). It wasn't for about 3-4 years somewhere between 1991 and 1996.

FYI Russia could not afford to invest into space program as near as much as Soviet Union did, essentially it just continued to do same things that were before - manned launches for example are done using technology from the 60s.

Soviet Union was never good when it came to satellites or anything that required good electronics etc, the main spying was done using more effective means - moles in relevant places.

The main issue with UK is wasteful public sector especially their final salaries - those need to be renegotiated and if unions refuse then a tax needs to be introduced on their pensions that would have the same net effect - reducing them: this is far more important than removal of Trident program.

[Menelaus]

The main issue with UK is wasteful public sector especially their final salaries - those need to be renegotiated and if unions refuse then a tax needs to be introduced on their pensions that would have the same net effect - reducing them: this is far more important than removal of Trident program.

Agreed. I'm currently off the bench with The Pensions Regulator (government body) and the government pension schemes seem to be exceptionally generous.

As for unions - I would hope that they've got bigger problems when the next government comes in - i.e., the mass redundancy of whole tranches of the civil service (or at least, one would hope so).

[AtW]

As for unions - I would hope that they've got bigger problems when the next government comes in - i.e., the mass redundancy of whole tranches of the civil service (or at least, one would hope so).

I'd say their final salaries are a bigger issue than most people realise - it's not just that they will have to be paid in the distant future, but right now Govt has to be seen as doing something about it as otherwise UK might go proper bankrupt.

Given those crazy taxes that were used to prop up public sector, it would only be fair if their pensions get taxed unless they agree volunterily to reduce them. Frankly public sector pensions should be no different to pensions received by taxpayers, if anything taxpayers should be getting higher pensions than public sector.

[AlfredJPruffock]

If anything taxpayers should be getting higher pensions than public sector.

Why stop there - why not abolish pensions completely - let the individual carry on working - if he prefers not to work then its his responsiblity to cater for himself by saving money prior to his retirement - if he cannot find work then give him unemployment beenfit till he finds work.

I have no pension and rebut the notion of retirement firmly.

[AtW]

Why stop there - why not abolish pensions completely - let the individual carry on working - if he prefers not to work then its his responsiblity to cater for himself by saving money prior to his retirement

I'd agree generally with it, but it would lead to a lot of people making stupid decisions, I think pension/social security taxes should be optional to those who wish to opt out from them but already have means of supporting themselves.