Time to abolish the NHS?

[lambrini_socialist]

About 15 I would guess. Your age and IQ, that is.

girth

[expat]

According to WHO, France has the best healthcare system in the world. They are a country with a similar sized economy and population. Can we not learn from them?

No, we can't. We can't learn from anybody else. The British, or I may possibly mean "the English" here, are pathologically incapable of learning from anywhere else, probably because they don't admit that there is anywhere else, at least anywhere else that has got anything right.

There are exceptions of course; but they are not to be found living here.

[Not So Wise]

The fact that healthcare is free means that many people are now abusing the system by not taking responsibility for their own health.

Fictitious correlation, case to point, USA has most expensive healthcare costs in the world (in charges directly to the individual and insurance costs) and yet is one of the unhealthiest nations in the world

The number one problem with the NHS is and always has been a problem of (mis) management

Be it to much paperwork, tons more administration/managerial staff than actual medical staff to deal with paperwork, constantly changing political priorities, over ambitious and mismanaged IT projects so forth

With it's current budgets, if the NHS was run properly, with decent long term planning it would be providing a health care service that would be the envy of the world

Only way for that to happen would be to re unify it (do away with PCT's), under a central controlling body that has clear guidelines on what it's long term objectives are, cut down on the paperwork and red tape (and get rid of the associated staff) and block successive government's from interfering (aka no government appointments to the head of the NHS every 4 years)

But would say what we have right now is 1000 times better than the US system which is what some (especially insurance and private medical) want over here and anyone who personally wants such a system here "because they can afford it" have clearly never experienced the US system, no one can afford that, even if you are a millionaire, because if you get something that's your insurance company decide they don't have to pay out on (which will be a lot) you will be a pauper long before you die and your grandchildren will still be paying your medical bill's years after you are gone

sasguru make your mind up, either you want private system or you don't.

The French system is not private, all long term/serious/costly medical problems are fully covered, minor incidental stuff is 70% covered and only a small charges are allowed to be passed to the patient (similar to prescription charge here) and the 3 main insurance companies are non profit groups.

Basically it's the NHS (which it was modelled after) with the National Insurance part not controlled directly by the government.

Only real reason their system works so much better is their management of it is/has been a lot better and it did not have for 20 years of successive governments (mid 70's to mid 90's) butchering it for money and then 15 years of government just tossing money at it while giving it random superficial politically motivated "targets"

[Moscow Mule]

girth

<puerile>
15?

You, sir, have a woman's girth.
</puerile>

[bobhope]

I did, via NI contributions ...

Do you really believe that NI contributions are somehow "segregated" from general taxation?

There's just one pot of (rapidly diminishing) tax take. You're a contractor, you should know that.

[TimberWolf]

We would be a healthier nation if we removed medical care, whether private or public. It might take a few generations though.

More realistic solution: cap medical practitioners salaries. They are too highly paid and feed off the vulnerable like leeches and it is sickening.

[Toastiness]

The French system is not private, all long term/serious/costly medical problems are fully covered, minor incidental stuff is 70% covered and only a small charges are allowed to be passed to the patient (similar to prescription charge here) and the 3 main insurance companies are non profit groups.

Basically it's the NHS (which it was modelled after) with the National Insurance part not controlled directly by the government.

And a crucial difference, in France the cost to employees of social security is double the amount in the UK (roughly 22% compared to around 11%).

The NHS is far from being perfect, but you get what you pay for...

[TykeMerc]

Only real reason their system works so much better is their management of it is/has been a lot better and it did not have for 20 years of successive governments (mid 70's to mid 90's) butchering it for money and then 15 years of government just tossing money at it while giving it random superficial politically motivated "targets"

That's a fair assessment.

I share the opinion that the NHS needs significant reform in its management, the system itself is sound, but the organisation is bloated, overly beaurocratic, slow and inefficient.
I would not like to see us lose a taxpayer funded healthcare system, I would however like to see us get vastly better value for our money which is perfectly achievable.

[expat]

And a crucial difference, in France the cost to employees of social security is double the amount in the UK (roughly 22% compared to around 11%).

The NHS is far from being perfect, but you get what you pay for...

It doesn't matter whose side of the paysheet the contributions go on, they are paid from the payroll bill whether you call them employee's or employer's.

I am staggered to see a contractor of all people try that fake arithmetic. Who do you think pays the employer's contributions? OK, the employer: but where does the employer take the money from? The Tooth Fairy? No, from the payroll. I.e. from the employees.

[ASB]

Do you really believe that NI contributions are somehow "segregated" from general taxation?

There's just one pot of (rapidly diminishing) tax take. You're a contractor, you should know that.

Strictly that's not entirely true. There is a devious system whereby a certain amount of NI contributions (not very much) is specifically routed to specific agencies. This allows the funding myth to be perpertuated and a politician not actually lying when they trot out the familiar lines.