Chico

[sasguru]

Hmmm

Didn't realise you are a Roman Franco. Just finished reading a history of the Roman Republic. So where did it all go wrong, eh?

[Spartacus]

Didn't realise you are a Roman Franco. Just finished reading a history of the Roman Republic. So where did it all go wrong, eh?

I blame Crassus.

[sasguru]

I think Sulla started the rot.

[Spartacus]

That Saturninus isn't without blame. And don't even get me started on Catalinus.

[Francko]

That Saturninus isn't without blame. And don't even get me started on Catalinus.

Messalina played an important role.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Messalina

"Her reputation is very poor. A number of Roman historians (mainly Tacitus and Suetonius) portray her as a cruel, avaricious, foolish nymphomaniac who had many wild affairs and once challenged a notorious Roman prostitute named Scylla to an all-night sex competition. (Scylla gave up at dawn, but Messalina continued well into the morning.) She duped Claudius and manipulated him into executing those who displeased or spurned her. She is also recorded as a lover of parties and festivities as well as an enthusiastic player of court politics who sold her influence to Roman nobles and foreign notables. Her name is now used as a synonym for others with her supposed vices."

[Spartacus]

Messalina played an important role.

Except we're talking about the Roman Republic, Franco. Did you not pay much attention at the grammaticus?

[sasguru]

Seems to me ...

... that incest was rife in post_republic Rome as the Romans declined to the standards of the Ptolemaic Greeks. If Franco is descended from that lot, that might explain his general effeteness and status as a bully-victim

Do you have a receding jaw-line Franco?

[threaded]

I think the fall of the republic is very similar to what is happening in the western world now. A small number of families owned most things and controlled just about everything. Unfortunately these families were not the type who are good at governance and a little too greedy. This greed fuelled disenfranchisement: in Rome the soldiers were originally also landowners, yet the price of land kept increasing and mortgage payments eventually outstripped the ability of an ordinary soldier to pay.

[Spartacus]

Originally, yes, but after the Marian reforms the average legionary was much more likely to come from the head count rather than be a land owning equestrian expected to provide his own equipment. These new recruits saw an army career as a means to obtain land as part of the spoils of war. Of course, this lead to the general acting as patron to thousands of clients all with military training and who owed their primary allegiance to their former commander rather than to the state, hence ultimately to the series of civil wars that wracked the republic and initiated its transformation into the empire.

[threaded]

Yes, my point. The land that was being offered to the soldiers was supposed to be owned by the state, but the rich families had a grab on it and were not too happy about letting go. So these soldiers who previously were independant citizens found they had to support their general whatever it was he was up to. So essentially their votes meant nothing only how much a politician could afford to spend on getting elected counted.