Brown says we're doing great

[BobTheCrate]

Fair dincums then John.

At the risk of appearing argumentative I'm not sure your view about the Indian & Chinese willingness to work harder than us Brits for example, isn't a tad sweeping statement.

Non front line public sector and HR employees excluded of course.

[DodgyAgent]

It is all about motivation

Fair dincums then John.

At the risk of appearing argumentative I'm not sure your view about the Indian & Chinese willingness to work harder than us Brits for example, isn't a tad sweeping statement.

Non front line public sector and HR employees excluded of course.

It is not only sweeping but it is correct. The Indians and Chinese do not have the soft belly of welfare to fall back on. They have no notion of being able to obtain money without working. Why else do you think that so many UK jobs are being done by Eastern Europeans?

What Europe fails to realise is that this "soft welfare" system of ours cannot be sustained for much longer. We (in Europe) are living off the wealth created by our predecessors.

[BobTheCrate]

What Europe fails to realise is that this "soft welfare" system of ours cannot be sustained for much longer. We (in Europe) are living off the wealth created by our predecessors.

How does this differ from my statement ...

"Eventually the massively increased size of the UK's public sector has to be paid for. It is increasingly evident as tax receipts continue falling that the private sector cannot sustain the current size of the public sector."

Not withstanding your addition about living off the wealth generated by our predecessors (which I agree with you) I think it unfair of you to tar all the British workforce with this sweeping brush that we don't work as hard as Indians and Chinese.

Try telling that to Britian's self employed for example who, apart from their normal excessive hours trying to earn a crust (pre supposing they can eventually bypass the skill-less & parasitical HR obstacles within the private sector), are 'slave labour' for the Inland Revenue, Customs & Excise and goodness knows how many other state run departments.

Or is it that once again you just want to pick another argument with me for the sake of it ?

[AlfredJPruffock]

Try telling that to Britian's self employed for example who, apart from their normal excessive hours trying to earn a crust (pre supposing they can eventually bypass the skill-less & parasitical HR obstacles within the private sector), are 'slave labour' for the Inland Revenue, Customs & Excise and goodness knows how many other state run departments.

Or is it that once again you just want to pick another argument with me for the sake of it ?

Hear Hear Bob !

I think DA could be arguing in his spare time ... oh no he isnt, oh yes he is... ad nauseam ...

[DodgyAgent]

It is not only sweeping but it is correct. The Indians and Chinese do not have the soft belly of welfare to fall back on. They have no notion of being able to obtain money without working. Why else do you think that so many UK jobs are being done by Eastern Europeans?

What Europe fails to realise is that this "soft welfare" system of ours cannot be sustained for much longer. We (in Europe) are living off the wealth created by our predecessors.

Sorry Bob, I was targeting the people at the lower end of the labour market where the option of welfare demotivates them from working. I have always said that the self employed work harder (and more importantly smarter) than anyone, particularly IT contractors. I also agree with your view of people who work in the public sector with some notable exceptions of many of those working in the front line of health and education. HR people are wonderful and I wont hear a word said against them.

My recent visit to Scotland was to meet with contractors for a major PFI project requiring labour (on the IT side). Despite the high levels of unemployement most of the available workforce prefer to live off welfare than dirty their hands on a building site.

[BobTheCrate]

HR people are wonderful and I wont hear a word said against them.

It's nostalgic to experience some of your wit again Dodgy.

Despite the high levels of unemployement most of the available workforce prefer to live off welfare than dirty their hands on a building site.

At the risk of appearing to do what I accused you of :-

Or maybe dirty their CVs in the eyes of perfectionist HR blaggers ?

I wonder how many people with good skills have been praised, and rewarded by HR blaggers, who are impressed with 'hod-carrier' plumb in the middle of their CV ?

Damned if they do, damned if they don't.

[AlfredJPruffock]

Sorry Bob, I was targeting the people at the lower end of the labour market where the option of welfare demotivates them from working. I have always said that the self employed work harder (and more importantly smarter) than anyone, particularly IT contractors. I also agree with your view of people who work in the public sector with some notable exceptions of many of those working in the front line of health and education. HR people are wonderful and I wont hear a word said against them.

My recent visit to Scotland was to meet with contractors for a major PFI project requiring labour (on the IT side). Despite the high levels of unemployement most of the available workforce prefer to live off welfare than dirty their hands on a building site.

DA

Good to know you have returned from the Celtic wilderness unscathed, I do hope my advice on avoiding chip shops and Omnibuses was of value.

Sadly your comments about Scotland are perfecty correct, it is even more daunting to realise that there is vast amount of the Scottish workfoce employed by the Government, very little encouragement for private enterprise.

What to do ?

I would reccomend that for single people without dependants, Welfare is cut off after six months as they do the USA.

Workers who fall in the above category would also be exempt from the minimum wage legislation thereby allowing private enterprise to benefit from reduced labour costs.

For those who have been working I would like to see a return to Earnings Related Benefits whereby those workers who have been contributing significant amounts of Income Tax over a period of years should receive a corresponding higher benefits allowance for the first six months of unemployment,assuming they have lost their employment through no fault of their own.

[DodgyAgent]

HR people

It's nostalgic to experience some of your wit again Dodgy.


At the risk of appearing to do what I accused you of :-

Or maybe dirty their CVs in the eyes of perfectionist HR blaggers ?

I wonder how many people with good skills have been praised, and rewarded by HR blaggers, who are impressed with 'hod-carrier' plumb in the middle of their CV ?

Damned if they do, damned if they don't.

If someone is blagging their skills then it will all come out either at interview or during the first week of the contract. Most managers are (or at least should be) skilled at interviewing and reading CVs.

HR has become much more sophisticated these days with companies outsourcing contractor procurement to the likes of Robert walters, Alex Mann, Modus. these people have their own SLAs against which they are judged/measured and they are constantly seeking better ways to procure you guys. Margins are contained and kept what I call "Competitive". They also protect the PMs from duplicate and excessive numbers of CVs.

It is much harder for us cowboys to squeeze impressionable/tulipe but cheap contractors into jobs at high margins. The CVs need to be absolutly spot on. You tend to find that good contractors are commercially astute enough to naturally produce good CVs.

[Spodicus]

I'm Spodicus.

I'm DimPrawn.

[BobTheCrate]

I was attempting (and failing) to acknowledge that not everyone on the dole is work shy and that HR people are far from blameless.

Though I do agree HR people are indeed wonderful - as pond life goes.

The blagging I was referring to wasn't the applicants. I was referring to the blagging of HR parasites who seem to be able (for the time being) to justify their inflated salaries with stupid, unscientific, unqualified claptrap about who would make a good employee and who wouldn't. Who would make a good contractor and who wouldn't.

There was an article posted here a while back headed something like, "Bad IT people still escaping the HR radar".

I posed the response, "Bad HR still escaping commercial radar". I wonder the extent to which HR far from helping industry, is actually damaging it.

Perish the very thought there could be any truth in that ay ?

BTW I don't actually class RCs as HR people. They're usually very different animals. RC's are also much further up the pond life hierarchy.

RCs are motivated by money and not by the sound of their own stupid claptrap ideas and ridiculous perception of what they think they're worth.

As an RC I'd of thought you feel as much obstructed unnecessarily by HR as everyone else is.