Britain will come out of this recession before Euroland...

[sasguru]

So what are my real reasons for not agreeing with the UK entering the Euro?

Oh come now Dodgy, when it comes to the Euro you can either listen to this man or some fantasist, not very bright, chronically-single bloke who lives in a bedsit in Birmingham

[DodgyAgent]

Don't know. But by your admission those reasons are not business based (which in other words economics based as far as your business is concerned).

I am just reading some legal stuff now (for potential big client), so it's a big hard for me to mind read from here, maybe you are a racist bigot, maybe you are an idiot, maybe it's something else. A few hundred more insults (from me to you) dodgy and I think we will get even.

Could it possibly be that I may have strong enough reasons for not wanting to join the Euro DESPITE the fact that in many ways it will benefit me? Or is that not black and white enough for you? or does it mean that you may have to agree someone else's point?

[AtW]

Could it possibly be that I may have strong enough reasons for not wanting to join the Euro DESPITE the fact that in many ways it will benefit me?

It is almost certainly the case here, so as you can see I am agreeing with you now.

[Doggy Styles]

No, wrong again, I see a pattern here: either deliberate wind up or stupidity, or both.

If a view is formed on the basis of arguements (as opposed to faith or prejudice like he has) then it's fine to put them forward because opposing arguements will have a chance to change original formed view.

In Dodgy's case his made up view was not based on rational arguements, so it's pointless to argue with him offering counter-arguements or defeating his own because in the end it is all down to his faith/prejudice that can't be addressed with rational approach.

Therefore, the solution in case of euro to ignore people like Dodgy and focus on those who are capable to make rational decisions for his (as he is clearly unable in this case). You don't need to convince everyone - over 50% yes votes will be enough, there is as much point to try to convince Dodgy's of this world as for Conservatives to try to get MPs in Scotland.

From where I sit Dodgy has put forward rational arguments, which you acknowledged earlier, but you dismiss them because you say his view is based on other, irrational arguments that you can never refute.

So why not ignore the irrational and dismantle the rational?

I've seen him challenge you on rational questions, and at that point you run for cover.

It appears to me, as an observer, that you don't have rational answers.

[PM-Junkie]

So what are my real reasons for not agreeing with the UK entering the Euro?

There is a plethora of arguments against joining the Euro...take your pick.

Entry would mean a permanent transfer of domestic monetary autonomy to the ECB so giving up flexibility on exchange rates and short-term interest rates. Domestic monetary policy would no longer be able to respond flexibly to economic shocks such as the ones we are experiencing now.

Adjusting to the EU involves substantial costs for businesses.....in case AtWat hasn’t noticed – there isn’t much spare capital around at the moment. There are also widely acknowledged economic costs and risks arising from losing the option to devalue the domestic currency in order to restore international competitiveness (ie we could no longer stimulate our economy by devaluing our currency and increasing exports). History demonstrates that well-chosen devaluations can help an economy out of difficulties – the UK should retain this option.

Historically, we have been more sensitive to interest rate changes than other EU countries – in part because of the high scale of owner-occupation on variable-rate mortgages in the UK housing market. Joining a currency union with no monetary flexibility requires the UK to have more flexibility in labour markets and in the housing market. The UK rented sector is too small to be a flexible substitute for owner-occupation. Until these issues are addressed, adopting the Euro is widely regarded as being too restrictive and risky for the UK economy (and not just by UK economists).

Substantial fiscal transfers will be needed for poorer countries within the EU along with a more activist European Regional Policy to reduce structural economic inequalities. We certainly cannot afford this at present – especially with the liebore borrowing frenzy....so it is far better to sit outside the Euro zone and let those who want to progress with monetary union pay for it themselves.

There has clearly been insufficient coordination of European monetary policy which has lessened the effectiveness of alleviating local economic difficulties. The next time there is a recession, do we really want to be twiddling our thumbs waiting for them to pull their fingers out?

The Euro is not and never will be an optimal currency area – the European economies have not converged fully in a real structural sense and at some stage in the future, there is a definitely possibility (likelyhood?) that excessively high interest rates will be set because of an inflationary fear in one part of the zone which is unsuited to another area.

It is clear that certain countries dominate the workings of the Central Bank and the effects on monetary policy within Europe because of different inflation psychologies between member nations. This in my view is enough of a reason to steer well clear of it.

Economic shocks such as the one we are expriencing shows the obvious structural differences within the countries of Europe so (eg compare Ireland to Germany). This will inevitably lead to imbalances and there will be no mechanism to restore the balance.

The EC tax revenue is only 1.5% of GDP, which is an insufficient basis for an effective system of re-distributive taxation. In the event of differential prosperity within Europe there can be no confidence that the more fortunate countries will permit a greater degree of re-distribution. For so long as the UK market structures remain susceptible to bouts of inflation - and that isn't likely to change now that we owe a trillion quid, the move to a low European interest rate regime would prove to be very damaging.

....but of course, according to AtWat, those of us who don't want to touch the Euro with a barge pole don't know what we are talking about and have no reason for taking such a position other than being an idiot who only reads the daily mail, and any "real reasons" for not wanting the Euro are therfore to be ignored.

[AtW]

at that point you run for cover.

I've got more important thing to do right now - large scale license agreement for my business. Since I've known Dodgy for sometime I cut discussion short and his further reaction proved (in my view) that I was correct to do it.

[AtW]

The EC tax revenue is only 1.5% of GDP, which is an insufficient basis for an effective system of re-distributive taxation.

Which is a good thing because EC therefore does not affect much member states, so those of them that joined up will benefit from single currency without huge cost of running central Govt (like say member states of US of A). That's a good arguement PRO euro, rather than against.

[TykeMerc]

Quite a compelling argument PM-Junkie.

[sasguru]

There is a plethora of arguments against joining the Euro...take your pick.

Entry would mean a permanent transfer of domestic monetary autonomy to the ECB so giving up flexibility on exchange rates and short-term interest rates. Domestic monetary policy would no longer be able to respond flexibly to economic shocks such as the ones we are experiencing now.

Adjusting to the EU involves substantial costs for businesses.....in case AtWat hasn’t noticed – there isn’t much spare capital around at the moment. There are also widely acknowledged economic costs and risks arising from losing the option to devalue the domestic currency in order to restore international competitiveness (ie we could no longer stimulate our economy by devaluing our currency and increasing exports). History demonstrates that well-chosen devaluations can help an economy out of difficulties – the UK should retain this option.

Historically, we have been more sensitive to interest rate changes than other EU countries – in part because of the high scale of owner-occupation on variable-rate mortgages in the UK housing market. Joining a currency union with no monetary flexibility requires the UK to have more flexibility in labour markets and in the housing market. The UK rented sector is too small to be a flexible substitute for owner-occupation. Until these issues are addressed, adopting the Euro is widely regarded as being too restrictive and risky for the UK economy (and not just by UK economists).

Substantial fiscal transfers will be needed for poorer countries within the EU along with a more activist European Regional Policy to reduce structural economic inequalities. We certainly cannot afford this at present – especially with the liebore borrowing frenzy....so it is far better to sit outside the Euro zone and let those who want to progress with monetary union pay for it themselves.

There has clearly been insufficient coordination of European monetary policy which has lessened the effectiveness of alleviating local economic difficulties. The next time there is a recession, do we really want to be twiddling our thumbs waiting for them to pull their fingers out?

The Euro is not and never will be an optimal currency area – the European economies have not converged fully in a real structural sense and at some stage in the future, there is a definitely possibility (likelyhood?) that excessively high interest rates will be set because of an inflationary fear in one part of the zone which is unsuited to another area.

It is clear that certain countries dominate the workings of the Central Bank and the effects on monetary policy within Europe because of different inflation psychologies between member nations. This in my view is enough of a reason to steer well clear of it.

Economic shocks such as the one we are expriencing shows the obvious structural differences within the countries of Europe so (eg compare Ireland to Germany). This will inevitably lead to imbalances and there will be no mechanism to restore the balance.

The EC tax revenue is only 1.5% of GDP, which is an insufficient basis for an effective system of re-distributive taxation. In the event of differential prosperity within Europe there can be no confidence that the more fortunate countries will permit a greater degree of re-distribution. For so long as the UK market structures remain susceptible to bouts of inflation - and that isn't likely to change now that we owe a trillion quid, the move to a low European interest rate regime would prove to be very damaging.

....but of course, according to AtWat, those of us who don't want to touch the Euro with a barge pole don't know what we are talking about and have no reason for taking such a position other than being an idiot who only reads the daily mail, and any "real reasons" for not wanting the Euro are therfore to be ignored.

Well put concise summary of the "against" position.
I see the twat has responded but I don't expect with his shallow, simpleton thinking that he will make much of a job responding to the many points listed.

Like religious believers, he happily discards inconvenient facts that do not fit in his blinkered view.

[Francko]

....but of course, according to AtWat, those of us who don't want to touch the Euro with a barge pole don't know what we are talking about and have no reason for taking such a position other than being an idiot who only reads the daily mail, and any "real reasons" for not wanting the Euro are therfore to be ignored.

You are taking him too seriously. He is here just to practise his english so he would argue against anything really.