People 'can't wait for ID cards'

[TykeMerc]

Incognito I didn't make any reference to needing write access to the database, but I don't see why commercial or government organisations should have read access to MY details let alone write access. Write access has nothing to do with the points I raised anyway.

I've got a passport that was issued recently and it has NO biometric data, I doubt that any EU citizen has a biometric passport so again your argument is meaningless at the least for multiple years.
Passports are only read on entry, there's nothing to stop someone using a real one to enter then a forged EU one after that to get one of your infallible ID cards.

False positives and negatives with biometrics are far more commonplace than you realise or will admit, since they're talking about the biometrics being collected at Post Offices the kit will be crude at best and far from perfectly calibrated or operated.

The tracking details you mention are already available and ineffective.

The NI register is known to be chock full of errors, you want that pile of junk to have actual power over everyones life?

I'm still completely unconvinced by your arguments that the ID card scheme will be anything other than a useless expensive cluster **** white elephant.

[Doggy Styles]

ID cards sound like a great idea. Like subprime mortgage bonds, communism, and a warmer planet to live on.

[Purple Dalek]

15000 people have been miss-identified as pedos to potential employers.

Isn't a central government run database wonderful.

The opportunities to really **** someones life up are immense.

So, all these people that want id-cards: you first! You're just the sort of people who truely deserve it.

[Bob Dalek]

There may be a silver lining to biometric identity failures: I may be mistaken for Dim Prawn and instantly become a millionaire. Boomed, I tell ya!

[Incognito]

Incognito I didn't make any reference to needing write access to the database, but I don't see why commercial or government organisations should have read access to MY details let alone write access. Write access has nothing to do with the points I raised anyway.

I've got a passport that was issued recently and it has NO biometric data, I doubt that any EU citizen has a biometric passport so again your argument is meaningless at the least for multiple years.
Passports are only read on entry, there's nothing to stop someone using a real one to enter then a forged EU one after that to get one of your infallible ID cards.

False positives and negatives with biometrics are far more commonplace than you realise or will admit, since they're talking about the biometrics being collected at Post Offices the kit will be crude at best and far from perfectly calibrated or operated.

The tracking details you mention are already available and ineffective.

The NI register is known to be chock full of errors, you want that pile of junk to have actual power over everyones life?

I'm still completely unconvinced by your arguments that the ID card scheme will be anything other than a useless expensive cluster flip white elephant.

You mentioned how easy it would be to fake ID cards because commercial organisations would have access to the database. A fake ID card isn't much use without a database entry to correlate it against and you can't do that if you can't write to the database. Commercial organisations can get far more information about you from the Credit Reference Agencies. These organisations should only be querying the database on instigation of an action by you, i.e. a mortgage application.

Biometric passports were introduced in 2006, I thought they were compulsory unless you were working for one of 'the agencies'. I'm not going to call you a liar if you insist you've got one. The ID card isn't meant to go live for voluntarily enrolment until 2012. Give them 4 years to bed it in and I'm guessing it won't become compulsory until 2016. That's 10 years since the introduction of Biometric passports and I think the expiry of a passport is 10 years (could be mistaken on that) so the assumption is that if you have a passport by the time it's compulsory, it'll be Biometric.

They're talking about contracting in an outside firm, i.e. group four or similar to collect the data at convenient locations nationwide. That would involve setting up collection centres at places like Bluewater, etc. That does not mean sticking a crappy little scanner in the corner of a post office and having some old woman take your Biometrics. This will be the same kit they use to capture your Biometrics at a passport office, just mobile.

I understand you're not convinced, I'm not trying to convince you. I'm putting across my arguments; you're intelligent enough to make your own observations. The whole reason I posted this was because PB said I was refusing to offer any justifications. (His words)

[TykeMerc]

You mentioned how easy it would be to fake ID cards because commercial organisations would have access to the database. A fake ID card isn't much use without a database entry to correlate it against and you can't do that if you can't write to the database. Commercial organisations can get far more information about you from the Credit Reference Agencies. These organisations should only be querying the database on instigation of an action by you, i.e. a mortgage application.

Biometric passports were introduced in 2006, I thought they were compulsory unless you were working for one of 'the agencies'. I'm not going to call you a liar if you insist you've got one. The ID card isn't meant to go live for voluntarily enrolment until 2012. Give them 4 years to bed it in and I'm guessing it won't become compulsory until 2016. That's 10 years since the introduction of Biometric passports and I think the expiry of a passport is 10 years (could be mistaken on that) so the assumption is that if you have a passport by the time it's compulsory, it'll be Biometric.

They're talking about contracting in an outside firm, i.e. group four or similar to collect the data at convenient locations nationwide. That would involve setting up collection centres at places like Bluewater, etc. That does not mean sticking a crappy little scanner in the corner of a post office and having some old woman take your Biometrics. This will be the same kit they use to capture your Biometrics at a passport office, just mobile.

I understand you're not convinced, I'm not trying to convince you. I'm putting across my arguments; you're intelligent enough to make your own observations. The whole reason I posted this was because PB said I was refusing to offer any justifications. (His words)

ID cards will be able to be faked (minus the back end database entries) so that they stand up to anything other than a machine read very easily and unless machine readers are incredibly common that's all they will need to do.
As soon as they're issued and a result stolen in any numbers then the data will be cloned onto fake picture cards and they will only be discovered by a full biometrics scan so that's not going to protect the identities of people who have their cards stolen or prevent businesses being ripped off by false ID's.

I don't believe for one second that the likes of Group 4 would hire good quality trustworthy staff to operate these scanners you say will be provided at "convenient locations", they will get the cheapest plebs they can get away with to operate the gear. As I pointed out previously biometric scanners are expensive, fiddly and need to be calibrated frequently even when the people being scanned have plenty of time on their hands which they won't. I doubt many people will be too keen on giving their detailed info including biometrics over to some gimp in a shopping centre, I certainly won't.

My current Passport was issued at the end of Nov 2007, no biometrics, it has a chip and antenna built in so it's machine readable, but certainly no biometric data.

My other concern which you didn't address is that low grade staff (Government and commercial) will have to have READ access to this colossally sensitive database so endangering both my ID and my privacy, both of which I hold very dear.

[Incognito]

ID cards will be able to be faked (minus the back end database entries) so that they stand up to anything other than a machine read very easily and unless machine readers are incredibly common that's all they will need to do.
As soon as they're issued and a result stolen in any numbers then the data will be cloned onto fake picture cards and they will only be discovered by a full biometrics scan so that's not going to protect the identities of people who have their cards stolen or prevent businesses being ripped off by false ID's.

I don't believe for one second that the likes of Group 4 would hire good quality trustworthy staff to operate these scanners you say will be provided at "convenient locations", they will get the cheapest plebs they can get away with to operate the gear. As I pointed out previously biometric scanners are expensive, fiddly and need to be calibrated frequently even when the people being scanned have plenty of time on their hands which they won't. I doubt many people will be too keen on giving their detailed info including biometrics over to some gimp in a shopping centre, I certainly won't.

My current Passport was issued at the end of Nov 2007, no biometrics, it has a chip and antenna built in so it's machine readable, but certainly no biometric data.

My other concern which you didn't address is that low grade staff (Government and commercial) will have to have READ access to this colossally sensitive database so endangering both my ID and my privacy, both of which I hold very dear.

We're going round in circles here. I agree with you a fake ID card could be created and used to identify yourself whilst cashing a cheque or something, but I believe there will be mechanisms in place to correlate the identity of the holder for something like a mortgage. You would have to balance the time and effort to confirm an entity against the cost and potential fraud saving. We all know banks write off obscene amounts of small scale frauds at the moment as it isn't cost effective to investigate them.

That's a bit insulting to people who work for Group4. They currently provide staff for court service, security guards for transporting money, transporting prisoners, etc. I bet they've had more background checks than 3/4's of the people who post on here. It's very condescending of you to link low pay to untrustworthiness. I'm sure the IPS would want an overseer role if they did outsource.

Passport - I still have an old one, so I don't know unless it is a Biometric passport and your Biometrics get registered and recorded on the passport at Heathrow if you enrol for the fasttrack Iris thing, I don't know so can't comment. Maybe that will be compulsory soon.

I did address your concern. If commercial staff were given Read access to the database, there's absolutely nothing they can't obtain from that, that they couldn't get from Experian (apart from your Biometrics). Don’t forget, you can filter views on Databases so certain roles are limited to what they can view. As for government staff, they've got access to it all already mate, they just have to request it from the separate agencies i.e HMRC, CSA, DVLA, etc.

[Peoplesoft bloke]

IPS dismisses 14 staff for data-protection breaches
The dismissals at the Identity and Passport Service, which is developing the National Identity Register, occurred over a three-year period.

Of 16 cases where data-protection regulations were breached, all but one involved members of staff who had legitimate access to the Passport Application Support System database, and who used this for unauthorised checks not related to their duties.

Link

If commercial staff were given Read access to the database, there's absolutely nothing they can't obtain from that, that they couldn't get from Experian (apart from your Biometrics).

Incorrect (ignoring the confusing double negative and assuming you meant "can") - Experian doesn't know your address if you have a valid reason for keeping it secret - witness protection, people avoiding violent partners, etc. This data will be in the NIR.

By the way, the term "biometrics" is being banded about freely. It's worth noting that current "biometric" passports only contain the biometric agreed by ICAO (and the US) which is a digital version of the photo stored on the passport chip.

Liars like David Blunkett are trying to pretend that "biometrics" means we must all have our fingerprints stored in a database or not travel - that is just nonsense.

[Peoplesoft bloke]

We all know banks write off obscene amounts of small scale frauds at the moment as it isn't cost effective to investigate them.

Do we? There's a lot of cardholder-not-present Credit Card fraud out there (which government figures class as ID theft even though it's nothing of the kind) - something which ID cards will do zero to address.

[Incognito]

IPS dismisses 14 staff for data-protection breaches
The dismissals at the Identity and Passport Service, which is developing the National Identity Register, occurred over a three-year period.

Of 16 cases where data-protection regulations were breached, all but one involved members of staff who had legitimate access to the Passport Application Support System database, and who used this for unauthorised checks not related to their duties.

Link


Incorrect (ignoring the confusing double negative and assuming you meant "can") - Experian doesn't know your address if you have a valid reason for keeping it secret - witness protection, people avoiding violent partners, etc. This data will be in the NIR.

By the way, the term "biometrics" is being banded about freely. It's worth noting that current "biometric" passports only contain the biometric agreed by ICAO (and the US) which is a digital version of the photo stored on the passport chip.

Liars like David Blunkett are trying to pretend that "biometrics" means we must all have our fingerprints stored in a database or not travel - that is just nonsense.

I would be more concerned if you'd posted a link stating that the IPS has never found a case of a member of staff abusing their access rights in the last three years. It is the sad truth that the human is the weakest link in the security here. What you are forgetting though, is that this is not a whole lot of new information that is being collected about you, this is simply collating the information into a central database and linking it to a identifier. If someone really wanted information on you, they can get it.

The ICAO is still in the early stages. As I expressed earlier, I believe that ID cards won't be compulsory until 2016, that gives them 8 years to agree on a standard and implement it and if they do decide to enforce certain Biometrics, then they'll most probably collect it from you as you're leaving the country, otherwise you don't go.

As for your comment about David Blunkett, have you been to the US on holiday lately? Link

You're more than welcome to refuse to give them your prints, they just escort you to the plane heading straight back home with a nice great big red 'entry refused' stamp in your passport.