People 'can't wait for ID cards'

[minestrone]

Tony Blair and Blunkett clearly stated that the intention was to make them compulsory.

The pilot at Manchester IS compulsory

Where? if you are so sure then surely you will find it for me

[expat]

Where?

I would like to know where that is stated.

Again you have made up a fact then tried to extrapolate it into some scenario to try and make a point from it. The fact remains you are talking mince.

Look at the Wikileak document linked to earlier. The idea is to start with "designation" which essebtially means that if you want something els (e.g. you are a young person appying for their first driving licence) then you have to get an ID card in order to do it. Sure, you could just not get a driving licence instead. Similarly for passport.

Interesting to note that one of their suggestions is to requie an ID card for access to public services, but this is dismissed on the grounds that it would require too much "joined up services" across Government departments to be practicable

[Moscow Mule]

Where?

I would like to know where that is stated.

Again you have made up a fact then tried to extrapolate it into some scenario to try and make a point from it. The fact remains you are talking mince.

You still haven't answered the question. Are you Hazel Blears?

Will you get an ID card when they become available?

[BoredBloke]

THis was reported on Thursday, 30 March 2006


http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk_politics/4860642.stm

ID cards 'to be made compulsory'

ID cards may become compulsory
Identity cards will be made compulsory if Labour wins the next election, Home Secretary Charles Clarke has said.
Under the current scheme all passport applicants from 2008 will have to get an ID card - although there will be a brief opt-out period until 2010.

But Mr Clarke said he plans legislation after the next election to make it compulsory for everyone to get a card, whether or not they have a passport.

The Conservatives and the Liberal Democrats both oppose ID cards.

But Mr Clarke said he did not think the opposition would be able to stop the scheme because by 2010 a "large number of people... should either have cards or hope to have cards".

"I would be very surprised if the next Conservative manifesto said 'stop the scheme'. It would be very difficult to do," he said.

'Foolish opt-out'

Between 2008 and summer 2010 people applying for a passport will be able to opt-out of having an identity card, but not from having their details entered on the ID card database. Under a Conservative government, the scheme would be scrapped and the savings put to other uses

David Davis, shadow home secretary


Q&A: ID cards

And although Mr Clarke stressed prices had yet to be worked out there will be no discount for those who opt out.

He said the opt-out had been introduced to allay fears expressed in the House of Lords that cards would be "foisted" on people.

But he added: "I don't think there is any benefit in opting out at all. Anyone who opts out in my opinion is foolish."

He declined to give further details of the costs, but ministers have already said the combined cost of a passport and ID card will be £93.

Clarke 'ruse'

Conservative shadow home secretary David Davis said: "When people are told they will have to pay for an ID card whether or not they opt to have one, this will make them even more resentful of this system.

"Under a Conservative government, the scheme would be scrapped and the savings put to other uses - including strengthening our security."

But the Lib Dems accused the Conservatives of being duped by Labour into backing the opt-out plan in a crunch Commons vote on Wednesday.

Home affairs spokesman Nick Clegg said: "Within hours of parading their so-called compromise the Home Office is already making it clear that it was little more than a tactical manoeuvre to ram this legislation through Parliament without any substantive change to the Draconian reach and financial costs of the ID database.

"It begs the question whether the Conservatives really knew what they were doing when they fell into line with Charles Clarke's ruse."

'Potential benefits'

Mr Clarke said he believed there was an "appetite" among the public for ID cards, which he said would bring "massive benefits" for banks, law enforcement agencies and "the individual citizen".

The scheme would "enable every citizen in this country, over time, to protect their identity from people who seek to defraud," he added.

Banks will be able to check people are who they say they are on the government's national identity database.

The "potential benefits to the private sector" of ID cards added up to £425m a year, said Mr Clarke.

The Department of Work and Pensions would also be able to use the register to check the identity of benefit claimants and combat fraud.

'Background checks'

The government is launching a new Identity and Passport Service on 1 April, incorporating the existing UK Passport Service, to administer the scheme.

Interviews will begin "later this year" for passport applicants.

People applying for passports will have to visit their local passport office where they will be interviewed, fingerprinted and have "background checks" carried out on them.

Their details will be entered on to the database and they will be issued with an identity card, although they will not be forced by law to carry it.

About 80% of the UK population has a passport and all will have to be renewed within the next 10 years, at an initial rate of about 7 million people a year, a Home Office spokesman said.

Mr Clarke was not willing to set a date for ID cards becoming compulsory, saying it would depend on the rate at which passports were renewed, he told reporters in a briefing at the Home Office as the current plans became law.

[Doggy Styles]

There are plenty of arguments against an ID card system:

Abuse of privacy
The government, the credit card company, your doctor, etc, all hold different pieces of information about you. In general they know only what they need to know in order to provide a service. This is a fundamental concept of data protection (Data Protection Act 1984). The introduction of a universal card - or even simply the National Identity Register - opens up the prospect of all this information - your "data shadow" - being combined and made available at the push of a button.

Functionality creep
Initially the Identity Card database will be used to register identity and - possibly - employment status. Once the incredibly expensive infrastructure is in place, future governments will see it as "common sense" and a "prudent use of public funds" to extend the functionality, perhaps to use any credit card, make any journey, buy any item. Your whole personal history would be tracked.

Intent
ID Cards provide the capability for massive abuse, regardless of current intent. Whatever assurances we are given now, sooner or later the powers will be abused. For a recent example, see the abuses of the Terrorism Act.

Problems with the ID card system
The database required to support compulsory National Identity Cards will be massive, probably the biggest IT project ever undertaken in this country. Whatever assurances are given, no government project has ever been completed that is not full of bugs and incorrect data. Add to that basic human error and we have the potential for a huge mess.

Applying for your ID card
You will need reliable forms of ID to obtain an ID card. But if you already have a reliable form of ID then why do you need an ID Card? If you don't have any reliable ID then how can you get your ID card - and if you do, how can the ID card be reliable? There is a serious danger that the new Identity Cards will simply legitimise existing fake ID.

The innocent have nothing to fear
What the innocent have to fear is loss of privacy, the nightmare of problems with a single integrated ID system that everyone would depend on, and incorrect data held on this system about you can blight your life. The worst thing though is that it will be abused.

[minestrone]

You still haven't answered the question. Are you Hazel Blears?

Will you get an ID card when they become available?

I know you are trying to get me to say 'I will get one when I need one'

[Pickle2]

Just a question for the anti-immigration lot.

How do you stop an illegal working here currently, given that there are no mandatory forms of id?

Illegal: Can I have a job please?

Business ownner: Are you legal to work here?

Illegal: Yes, I am english (honest) but I have no passport or no driver's licence by the way.

Business Owner (knowing full well he is an illegal): well, that is ok its not a crime, come on in and have the job. I will just have to trust you when you say you are english Yuriy.

Police Man: Naughty Naughty businessman, you have employed an illegal.

Business Man: Well how was I supposed to know? He told me he was english, and there is no way for me to verify it is there?

Police Man: Fair enough, I cant really prosicute you then can I? Carry on sir.

So how the feck do you stop business using illegals under the current system?

Answers on a post, er I mean, id card please.

[Moscow Mule]

Banks will be able to check people are who they say they are on the government's national identity database.

Private companies are to be given access to data on an all-encompassing database.

**** that

[Moscow Mule]

I know you are trying to get me to say 'I will get one when I need one'

So you are Hazel Blears.

Stabitty Stab stab stab.

[BoredBloke]

Just a question for the anti-immigration lot.

How do you stop an illegal working here currently, given that there are no mandatory forms of id?

Illegal: Can I have a job please?

Business ownner: Are you legal to work here?

Illegal: Yes, I am english (honest) but I have no passport or no driver's licence by the way.

Business Owner (knowing full well he is an illegal): well, that is ok its not a crime, come on in and have the job. I will just have to trust you when you say you are english Yuriy.

Police Man: Naughty Naughty businessman, you have employed an illegal.

Business Man: Well how was I supposed to know? He told me he was english, and there is no way for me to verify it is there?

Police Man: Fair enough, I cant really prosicute you then can I? Carry on sir.

So how the flip do you stop business using illegals under the current system?

Answers on a post, er I mean, id card please.

Quite easy - Ask for their NI number. A call to HMRC to check that the number tallys up with the name. Also - if in doubt, don't employ them. Make the fines for employing somebody not entitled to work here severe and enforce it.