Hurrah! Ireland!!! Thank you!

[DodgyAgent]

Don't waste your breath. Some on here are under the fond impression that Britain is a powerful imperial power who can go it alone instead of the 2nd rate European country we have become.
The reason why all 3 political parties are for the EU to some extent, is because the better minds recognise this and realise that Britain's future is within the EU.
Whether the current EU is a democratic and efficient institution is a different point.
This country has indeed become the "Fantasy Island".

Since when has one political party let alone three contained any "better minds"? The problem with insecure little dwarves like you SAS is that you think it is hip and trendy to wear your "pro EU" badge and thus show yourself off to those (taller) girlies as someone who is "with it" and "sees the future". So like a lemming (only smaller) falling off a cliff the vanity of your cause blinds you from the real agenda of those who run this corrupt organisation.

[Pickle2]

Unfortunately, and there is no one on this board who benefits more from the EU than me, there is no evidence to suggest that the EU has any intention or ability to use their extra powers to meet their aspirations. Given that the EU has a track record of incompetence, corruption and self aggrandisement it would be very stupid of us to give them any more power. In fact until the EU is run efficiently and honestly it should be gradually stripped of its powers.

Stripping the EU of its powers means giving those powers back to the home parliaments, (unless of course you are advocating a libertarianism philosophy). I might have more sympathy with your position if I thought for a minute the political classes in this country offered something better!

[sasguru]

Since when has one political party let alone three contained any "better minds"? The problem with insecure little dwarves like you SAS is that you think it is hip and trendy to wear your "pro EU" badge and thus show yourself off to those (taller) girlies as someone who is "with it" and "sees the future". So like a lemming (only smaller) falling off a cliff the vanity of your cause blinds you from the real agenda of those who run this corrupt organisation.

Who said I'm pro-EU? or that I'm a dwarf? Do you get all you information from insecure mad women?
What's your version of the future then? Britain going it's own way because obviously it has a brilliant economy that can take on all comers?

[Moscow Mule]

Don't waste your breath. Some on here are under the fond impression that Britain is a powerful imperial power who can go it alone instead of the 2nd rate European country we have become.
The reason why all 3 political parties are for the EU to some extent, is because the better minds recognise this and realise that Britain's future is within the EU.
Whether the current EU is a democratic and efficient institution is a different point.
This country has indeed become the "Fantasy Island".

Who said I'm pro-EU?

First post indicates you're far from euro-sceptic.

IMO the common market and the ECU was far enough. There's no need for political union.

[sasguru]

First post indicates you're far from euro-sceptic.

IMO the common market and the ECU was far enough. There's no need for political union.

Why does everything have to be so black and white? I'm totally against the gravy train EU that exists at the moment. At the same time I can see that the future of this country rests to some extent with some sort of European organisation.

[DodgyAgent]

Stripping the EU of its powers means giving those powers back to the home parliaments, (unless of course you are advocating a libertarianism philosophy). I might have more sympathy with your position if I thought for a minute the political classes in this country offered something better!

So are you suggesting that our country is in safer hands with the EU than it is with our own parliaments? My position is not one of getting out of the EU or diminishing its authority. My position is that the EU should not have any power whatsoever unless it has accountability through democracy.

To date laws can only be passed with the agreement of ALL EU members (technically anyway) which at least makes the EU somewhat subservient and accountable to the nation states of Europe. Bestowing it with the power to use majority voting takes the whole balance of power to a new level that can create huge coalitions of majority stakeholders that can dominate any minority whether it be an entire nation state, a group (Jews).

If the EU cannot find a way to not only make itself accountable to majorities but also hold responsibility towards minorities then it should not be given any more power.

[lilelvis2000]

Just because some parts of Europe are beneficial it does not mean all parts of the EU are beneficial. Your argument is like a boss saying "if you dont agree then leave the job."

Why should all of europe be hampered by one country. If the UK, Irie or any other that doesn't like the Lisbon treaty..then it can opt out of it. They can be part of a overall EU without the benefits of being in the full EU. They can move freely..but are out of the parliament and don't get any argricultural subsidy...or something on that line.

This EU could be something good...well it could..but well..I think the Uk should stay out because it doesn't really really want to be a part of it anyway.

[Pickle2]

To date laws can only be passed with the agreement of ALL EU members (technically anyway) which at least makes the EU somewhat subservient and accountable to the nation states of Europe. Bestowing it with the power to use majority voting takes the whole level of power to a new level that can create huge coalitions of majority stakeholders that can dominate any minority whether it be an entire nation state, a group (Jews).

But thats true of, say, the scotish parliament isnt it? The point is, with 25 or whatever countries, the EU will be in a state of descision paralysis if every country has to agree to every new law. Either that, or every bill will be stuffed full of subsidy and sweeteners to get each country to pass it.

So not every single bill that gets passed will be directly in the UKs national interest. Big deal, it doesn't worry me. As long as the EU as a whole continues to bring more to the UK that it takes away, ie it is a net gain for the country. Im happy. If it at the same time it can help improve the stadards of living across europe, im even happier. Even if that means for the next few years the new states gain more from the EU than we do.

[DodgyAgent]

Why should all of europe be hampered by one country. If the UK, Irie or any other that doesn't like the Lisbon treaty..then it can opt out of it. They can be part of a overall EU without the benefits of being in the full EU. They can move freely..but are out of the parliament and don't get any argricultural subsidy...or something on that line.

This EU could be something good...well it could..but well..I think the Uk should stay out because it doesn't really really want to be a part of it anyway.

The EU institutions are not good. The agricultural subsidy (you couldnt pick a better example of a more incompetent, inefficient corrupt institution than the CAP) is an Orwellian concept used in the same way as a Nazi concentration camp commander would control his inmates.

Who says that the "all of Europe" being hampered is a bad thing? What is being hampered exactly? the answer is that the only things that are being hampered are the EUs ability to extend its corruption and incompetence. The Irish have effectively put a stop to this and told the EU (as would every country had it been allowed a referendum) to get its house in order before it is given any more power.

I dont wish to insult your intelligence Pickle but why on earth do you think that an institution that says that it exists for the general good is going to be true to its word????

[DodgyAgent]

But thats true of, say, the scotish parliament isnt it? The point is, with 25 or whatever countries, the EU will be in a state of descision paralysis if every country has to agree to every new law. Either that, or every bill will be stuffed full of subsidy and sweeteners to get each country to pass it.

So not every single bill that gets passed will be directly in the UKs national interest. Big deal, it doesn't worry me. As long as the EU as a whole continues to bring more to the UK that it takes away, ie it is a net gain for the country. Im happy. If it at the same time it can help improve the stadards of living across europe, im even happier. Even if that means for the next few years the new states gain more from the EU than we do.

Why should the EU be allowed to draft legislation unless it is truly democratically and directly accountable (other than through a list of lies on a party manifesto book) to all the people of Europe?

This is Janet and John democracy. If you think that giving power to the EU without making it accountable is going to improve our lives then perhaps you can how us a single example of this in history.