Oath of allegiance to the queen.

[ratewhore]

A Government that won't allow appropriate disciplining of children either in the home or in the courts. A Government that champions the rights of the criminal not the victim. A Government that gives benefits to the undeserving and a Governement that time and time again whittles away at the income of the law abiding and the hard working.

Where's the incentive to knuckle down and make something of yourself, to improve yourself, to get an education or to play by the rules. You get the "life of Reilly" by just buggering about and pleasing yourself, secure in the knowledge that it's your "right" to do so.

welcome to NL's not so Great Britain...

[expat]

(Not just expat) Because she and the state are loyal to you.
The Queen is the head of state and such is ultimately responsible for all those rights and protections you make use of every day.
With rights come responsibilities.
I accept taht some people are not royalist, but you can exchange State for Queen if ever we go that route. Sensible compromise from Pvt Spud (for a change).

If you do not wish to be loyal then give up your rights and go find somewhere else to live.

I assume you have given up your passport.

Dont have time to argue today boys.

Sorry, disagree on all counts:

Because she and the state are loyal to you.
Because one party gives me something I don't ask for, am I obliged to give them what they want in return?

The Queen is the head of state and such is ultimately responsible for all those rights and protections you make use of every day.
With rights come responsibilities.
Governments derive their just powers from the consent of the governed, who alone rightfully possess the powers that they choose to delegate to the government. Making me swear to be "loyal" (and just look at the definition of that word, if you will: it is feudal) to a "sovereign" is not a power that the people righfully posess, so it is not a power that they can rightfully delegate to the government; therefore it is not a power that the government can rightfully exercise.

If you do not wish to be loyal then give up your rights and go find somewhere else to live.
Why should I give up anything? I live here because I was born here, not because I made a deal with the queen. I am who I am, and I have a right to be where I am. That right comes from my existence and is not a gift from anyone else.

I assume you have given up your passport.
I am not the one who wants to control my movement. A passport is not a privilege, it's a control measure.

And how come "sovereignty" rests with the queen, or even with the elected government and the queen? Because Might was once Right. As for those of us in Scotland, arguably neither the queen nor the government is sovereign, but the people. The Declaration of Arbroath 1320 declared that the king owed his position to the people, who could and would replace him if he did not act in the country's best interests, and later judgements in Scotland's courts have confirmed the constitutional primacy of this Declaration, and emphasised that Scotland in no way adopted the constitution of England at the Union. But that is another point.....

[HYpno27]

Difficult to answer, and it will take too long, but....
They do not have the rights and protections of the state.

Got to go and start skimming and other stuff now. May respond later.

Enjoy the skimming - question for if you get back
What do you mean by rights and protections of the state? As opposed to the other stuff we've been on about

[cailin maith]

I assume you had Irish Passport/Citizenship prior to this application.

Why would you apply for British citizenship? - where do you benefit?

Yes, I now have dual nationality. Only use the English passport occasionally like if I had to pay for a vias on an Irish passport

I applied for a job one time and they turned me down on nationality grounds...

where else but at the benefit office itself

Oh you are brave..... did you not read that I have PMT today...

[Rantor]

Difficult to answer, and it will take too long, but....
Any person living in the UK pays taxes to the UK and gets involved in their community as much as they wish to. They are also entitled to vote. They do not have to be a British citizen.
So you are no different to them and as such should only be entitled to the same benefits as them. They do not have the rights and protections of the state.

LG - Are you really in favour, or believe, that the relationship between the state and the individual is as rigid as this i.e. basically extending the "If you don't like it here why don't you %"*! off!" argument to citizens? If a citizen does not agree with the current structure or actions of the state should they be stripped of their citizenship? An old stalinist favourite I believe!

It also implies an inherent asymmetry in the relationship that allows the state to call the shots and determine what it is to be offered to and demanded from the citizens (or subjects in our case.)

The British constitution evolved to be way more subtle than this (even allowing for the fact that it doesn't exist per se) and the highly imbalanced state/individual relationship is something that only seems to be developing in recent years - how many agencies can kick your door in and intercept your communications theses days?

[The Lone Gunman]

Hi guys. Break time again.

This is a general answer to some questions.
As some will know I enjoy playing devils advocate so am not necessarily commited to the opinions I propose.

I am not in favour of this "oath", but mostly because it is meaningless.

Much of my response has been because of the number of people who are stating the "why should I response".
I do believe that far too many people are willing to accept the rights and protections that come with being a British citizen without feeling that they owe Britain everything.

I am also pushing at those who seem to accept that they have a birth right yet seem to state that the Queens birth right should be removed.
They seem to have rights but no responsibilites.

As I said it is a long argument and I dont have time so I am asking for a little extrapolation on your part and not a knee jerk reaction to some simple points.

I am not interested in how good present government or law is, it is the underlying state, GB, the Queen everything that remains British no matter who is in power.

[Sausage Surprise]

From another site:

SCHOOL leavers will be forced to swear allegiance to some stinking old cow even though they have never even met her or nothing.

The government has totally got this plan, right, to make teenagers go into this big room and say all these nice things about this totally minging old bird.

Then the teenagers, right, will have to say how great it is being British and all that, and totally promise not to behave like arseholes all the time.
But the teachers, right - get this - the teachers are totally saying it's all bollocks. They're saying 'no way, man, that's like total tulip'.
They're saying that the teenagers shouldn't have to do nothing, if it's like totally against their feelings and tulip. And that's the teachers, right?
It's all supposed to make the teenagers feel like they are all like totally grown up and serious like.
It's like, 'look at me, I've got a job and I'm all dressed nice and I'm like totally the same as everyone else'.
And get this, right, they also want to change the national anthem and that, and take out all that stuff about the Scottish. The Scottish right? Are they even English?

The whole thing is like totally controversial.

[HYpno27]

Hi guys. Break time again.


I do believe that far too many people are willing to accept the rights and protections that come with being a British citizen without feeling that they owe Britain everything.

Again - what rights and protections that come with citizenry? I wish to debate the specific. A number of us have raised valid counter points, and LG ol dude you keep saying the same thing without addressing ExPat, Rantor, me in any detail

[bogeyman]

From another site:

SCHOOL leavers will be forced to swear allegiance to some stinking old cow even though they have never even met her or nothing.

The government has totally got this plan, right, to make teenagers go into this big room and say all these nice things about this totally minging old bird.

Then the teenagers, right, will have to say how great it is being British and all that, and totally promise not to behave like arseholes all the time.
But the teachers, right - get this - the teachers are totally saying it's all bollocks. They're saying 'no way, man, that's like total tulip'.
They're saying that the teenagers shouldn't have to do nothing, if it's like totally against their feelings and tulip. And that's the teachers, right?
It's all supposed to make the teenagers feel like they are all like totally grown up and serious like.
It's like, 'look at me, I've got a job and I'm all dressed nice and I'm like totally the same as everyone else'.
And get this, right, they also want to change the national anthem and that, and take out all that stuff about the Scottish. The Scottish right? Are they even English?

The whole thing is like totally controversial.

Class

[snaw]

I am also pushing at those who seem to accept that they have a birth right yet seem to state that the Queens birth right should be removed.
They seem to have rights but no responsibilites.

The queens birth right? I think you might have missed the constitutional advances that have happened in the last several hundred years LG.