Are Pm's needed (loaded question I know)

[VectraMan]

It's the B-Ark principle. The company looks at those that do the actual work, and think we must keep them, then look at those that really run things and really make the money, and think we must keep them, and then who's left?

That's why PM jobs are scarce. Part of the useless third.

[51st State]

Well, that's where product gets made.

Assuming you're not just trolling, what would you describe as a 'real' job?

You can 'micro-manage', 'strategize' and 'marketize' all you want. If the product doesn't get properly designed, tested and implemented, by knowledgeable, experienced professionals, then you have SH7T all to sell

Conversely, if the product isn't "thought up", or isn't what's wanted, or costs too much to get to market, or is late to market, your wonderful technical skills and superlative design are worthless.

The delivery of IT (to time, budget, and quality) is a team sport. It's a shame that some people see themsleves as being a more important cog in the wheel, and probably why so much of a PM's day is taken up massaging egos ...

[51st State]

It's the B-Ark principle. The company looks at those that do the actual work, and think we must keep them, then look at those that really run things and really make the money, and think we must keep them, and then who's left?

That's why PM jobs are scarce. Part of the useless third.

Ah, Oxford. Home of one of the finest universities and the finest young minds. And obviously where the factory mentality ("managers, eh. What fooking good are they? They don't do fook all!") still thrives.

If nobody told developers like you what to do, you wouldn't remember that you had to get up in a morning

[EternalOptimist]

A good friend (mgt. consultant) and myself have been mulling over an idea to write a book entitled: The Organic Project - or something similar.

Without giving too much away, the premise is that PMs are basically useless bottlenecks who, instead of taking the load off the implementors of any task, simply burden them with crap and line-reporting overheads.

Bee hives don't have 'project manager' bees.

Bee hives produce honey. That is static.
If you want to move forward and grow yer business, bees need to produce
honeyed hot - toddies
they need PM'S . Bees will never produce hot toddies on their own.

[VectraMan]

Bee hives produce honey. That is static.
If you want to move forward and grow yer business, bees need to produce
honeyed hot - toddies
they need PM'S . Bees will never produce hot toddies on their own.

I think you've just justified marketing. Marketing say "We need honeyed hot-toddies", and the bees make it.

A PM would just delay the communication from marketing to bees, hold up the delivery of the product, annoy marketing by pointing at charts when asked why it isn't done yet, and annoy the bees by asking how it's going every 5 minutes when they're trying to get on with it.

[51st State]

I think you've just justified marketing. Marketing say "We need honeyed hot-toddies", and the bees make it.

A PM would just delay the communication from marketing to bees, hold up the delivery of the product, annoy marketing by pointing at charts when asked why it isn't done yet, and annoy the bees by asking how it's going every 5 minutes when they're trying to get on with it.

sat tossing it off talking about Lost or Star Trek

[BrowneIssue]

Bee hives don't have 'project manager' bees.

Making honey is business as usual and does not require project management. It is service management.

There are an awful lot of people doing "business as usual" and claiming to be PMs.

A project is the act of changing something from one steady state to another, for example, converting the hive to marmalade production. A project manager is someone who knows how to do this with a relatively greater chance of success than Joe Public.

But there ain't that many people with 'Project Manager' on their CV that can do that kind of business change successfully.

Ergo, most "project managers" are, indeed, pants because they are not really project managers.

[51st State]

Making honey is business as usual and does not require project management. It is service management.

There are an awful lot of people doing "business as usual" and claiming to be PMs.

A project is the act of changing something from one steady state to another, for example, converting the hive to marmalade production. A project manager is someone who knows how to do this with a relatively greater chance of success than Joe Public.

But there ain't that many people with 'Project Manager' on their CV that can do that kind of business change successfully.

Ergo, most "project managers" are, indeed, pants because they are not really project managers.

And most development is making simple changes to already established code that's been around for 20 years and even has comment blocks in it so that you don't have to think about what a programme already does.

Ergo, most developers are pants, because they aren't developing anything new.

[milanbenes]

.

Milan.

[threaded]

Honey Bees and social insects

Well, after reading this thread I would just like to thank many of the contributors for making me astonished at how the minimal level of general knowledge that is required to get by as a contractor is constantly dropping.

I suspect that if I were to suggest that some of you just take a little while out to actually watch some bees working, it may initially require a course in "bee identification".

Common misconceptions.

1) Bee society is flat layered. No, it is in fact pyrimidal, and behave more like an agressive sales unit, i.e. if you don't keep up targets you lose the office and the fancy car.

2) In Bee society everyone gets a share. No, if you don't produce, comes a down turn, you're literally pushed out of the door. Ask any drone in Autumn...

3) In Bee society everyone is a daughter of the queen. No, in the best performing hives the top foragers and scouts are generally recruited from other hives, and literally by word of mouth they recruit other good foragers and scouts.