religion

[Denny]

<rant>

I should add though, before being accused of being a lefty liberal loony - that this 'right' shouldn't result in barmy PC bend-over-backwards-behaviour by public sector numpties.

We need to be mindful of the fact that we have a cultural identity (Yes, yes we do, SallyAnne ) to preserve - a cultural identity that nets us loadsa money in tourism and cultural exports, not to mention forms a backbone to the perceived 'middle england' that lefty loonies find so threatening for some reason

The so called 'cultural identity' you describe is not the British culture at all. It's a carefully constructed psuedo pantomime and about as sentimental and superficial as it gets even if it does represent elements of truth and touches on aspects of our past, wildly exaggerated, I might add. It certainly does not represent our true culture at all. Culture is more subtle than that, and far more complex and not easily understood by tourists who just want to soak up the obvious distinctions and experience the history their own country may not have been part of. Read Orwell, who has a better grasp of the English culture of his time and it wasn't all about tea shops, cucumber sandwiches and the Queen, let me tell you.

If you go into the average house and look inside the window at the average family at 4pm in the afternoon, even a white family, do you honesty expect to see them drinking tea from flowery cups with plates of scones and clotted cream? You might see that in a Kent village though frequented by tourists. The middle England you describe as representing this culture is more suited to Midsomer Murders than the history books. Jeeeez

It's the same with us when we visit abroad: When I go to Egypt I want to live a fantasy based I want to expect not experience the complex and probably unpleasant truths about the country that forms part of their true culture. I want to see the pyramids and learn about King Tut and see the Nile, when I visit Australia I'll buy a boomerang and photograph a kangaroo and Koala, when I visit India I'll want to visit the Taj Mahal and eat a hot spicy dish. When people visit here they want to see sentries with bearskins, visit Ye Olde Tea Shops and visit Buck House. Does that mean that these symbols are all our country is about and represents a true understanding of our their cultures? The working class in this country, whether white or non white, don't seem to get a look in according to you.

Your British culture presents a very rosy and false picture, and if you lived abroad for any length of time instead of visiting it, layers upon layers of cultural revelations would become more obvious - a bit like peeling an onion.

[Ardesco]

Blah Blah Blah

What a load of drivel. Where has RH said we all sit around drinking teas and eating scones?

Are you trying to say that nobody has any culture?

Blatant trolling....

[realityhack]

The so called 'cultural identity' you describe is not the British culture at all. It's a carefully constructed psuedo pantomime and about as sentimental and superficial as it gets even if it does represent elements of truth and touches on aspects of our past, wildly exaggerated, I might add. It certainly does not represent our true culture at all. Culture is more subtle than that, and far more complex and not easily understood by tourists who just want to soak up the obvious distinctions and experience the history their own country may not have been part of. Read Orwell, who has a better grasp of the English culture of his time and it wasn't all about tea shops, cucumber sandwiches and the Queen, let me tell you.

If you go into the average house and look inside the window at the average family at 4pm in the afternoon, even a white family, do you honesty expect to see them drinking tea from flowery cups with plates of scones and clotted cream? You might see that in a Kent village though frequented by tourists. The middle England you describe as representing this culture is more suited to Midsomer Murders than the history books. Jeeeez

It's the same with us when we visit abroad: When I go to Egypt I want to live a fantasy based I want to expect not experience the complex and probably unpleasant truths about the country that forms part of their true culture. I want to see the pyramids and learn about King Tut and see the Nile, when I visit Australia I'll buy a boomerang and photograph a kangaroo and Koala, when I visit India I'll want to visit the Taj Mahal and eat a hot spicy dish. When people visit here they want to see sentries with bearskins, visit Ye Olde Tea Shops and visit Buck House. Does that mean that these symbols are all our country is about and represents a true understanding of our their cultures? The working class in this country, whether white or non white, don't seem to get a look in according to you.

Your British culture presents a very rosy and false picture, and if you lived abroad for any length of time instead of visiting it, layers upon layers of cultural revelations would become more obvious - a bit like peeling an onion.

I agree with you that it would be hard to pin our culture down for this reason. And for this reason we handle signs and symbols of our culture and others as tourists and tourist boards. The signs are pointers to further levels, layers of culture and sub-cultures and historical milestones that would entertain the more academic of visitors and ex-pats.

You can choose to skip over these signs like stepping stones to get the caricature of a national identity, or explore further, and walk off the tourist track to see how people really live. You say the working class don't get a look in. I'm not sure quite how you drew this conclusion from what I said - I didn't suggest the working class don't help define culture - far from it.

The working class have traditionally played a pivotal role in defining our culture, especially around the community, especially in the middle ages and during the Industrial Revolution. They have built our nation, fought world wars, contributed to debate, voted with ballot papers and with their feet. The working class, as a whole, have passed down centuries of oral history, language, shaped our sense of humour, built institutions, guilds, schools, working mens' clubs, almshouses, contributions schemes and so on.

The 'bubble-up' theory covers the anarchical development of our culture through sub-cultures very well indeed, in almost all aspects of our lives.

When I refer to 'chavs' I cite the groups with no respect for their elders, for the community, for honest hard work - those who see benefits as a right to sit on their arse all day playing Xbox games when they're fully capable of contributing to society but just don't give a toss - the same lot who forget that benefits are for those who really need them, think that manners are irrelevant, that mindless vandalism is acceptable behaviour, that refuse to hold themselves accountable for their actions or the resulting social ills.

Denny, I'm not trying to oversimplify what I'm saying - but it's natural to use some symbols to express frustration with a topic that could cover several hundred pages without using them. You're right about the 'onion layers', I'm never going to box British culture into some 'tea for two' framework - it's just not realistic. I'm a little confused about your reference to whites and non whites - I thought I made it clear what I feel about discriminating along differences like this - and the discussion isn't around race issues - I think that would be irrelevant.

[DodgyAgent]

The so called 'cultural identity' you describe is not the British culture at all. It's a carefully constructed psuedo pantomime and about as sentimental and superficial as it gets even if it does represent elements of truth and touches on aspects of our past, wildly exaggerated, I might add. It certainly does not represent our true culture at all. Culture is more subtle than that, and far more complex and not easily understood by tourists who just want to soak up the obvious distinctions and experience the history their own country may not have been part of. Read Orwell, who has a better grasp of the English culture of his time and it wasn't all about tea shops, cucumber sandwiches and the Queen, let me tell you.

If you go into the average house and look inside the window at the average family at 4pm in the afternoon, even a white family, do you honesty expect to see them drinking tea from flowery cups with plates of scones and clotted cream? You might see that in a Kent village though frequented by tourists. The middle England you describe as representing this culture is more suited to Midsomer Murders than the history books. Jeeeez

It's the same with us when we visit abroad: When I go to Egypt I want to live a fantasy based I want to expect not experience the complex and probably unpleasant truths about the country that forms part of their true culture. I want to see the pyramids and learn about King Tut and see the Nile, when I visit Australia I'll buy a boomerang and photograph a kangaroo and Koala, when I visit India I'll want to visit the Taj Mahal and eat a hot spicy dish. When people visit here they want to see sentries with bearskins, visit Ye Olde Tea Shops and visit Buck House. Does that mean that these symbols are all our country is about and represents a true understanding of our their cultures? The working class in this country, whether white or non white, don't seem to get a look in according to you.

Your British culture presents a very rosy and false picture, and if you lived abroad for any length of time instead of visiting it, layers upon layers of cultural revelations would become more obvious - a bit like peeling an onion.

You are right, culture is more subtle than one may think Denny. No one is saying that British culture presents a rosy picture. The point is that it is our culture, warts and all. It is ours and should be respected accordingly by visitors and people who want to live here from outside. You may visit Egypt and presumably you would not think of walking through Cairo wearing next to nothing would you?

You can sneer at your British stereotype all you like, but the point about our culture is that however you look at it the outcome of how this nation has developed is enough to attract many people to visit or live here.

One of the subtleties of our culture is that we can ridicule ourselves and our way of life as much as we like (which is precisely what midsomer murders actually does), as well as tolerate challenges/criticism from foreigners.

[The Lone Gunman]

Ohh Denny, Denny, Denny.
Do you ever manage to get the point or do your own ridiculous prejudices pervade all your opinions?

RH never mentioned any of the things you are trying to disprove. He never tried to tie down what British culture is nor where it stems from.
What he did say was that somewhere we have a cultural identity and it is as precious to us as anyone elses is to them. It is just that often we only realise it is there after it has been threatened or abandoned.

I think it is valid to mention our cultural heritage in this thread as it is based on our Christian history.

[OrangeHopper]

RealityHack, I bet you write dreadful code!

[Denny]

Ohh Denny, Denny, Denny.
It is just that often we only realise it is there after it has been threatened or abandoned.

I think it is valid to mention our cultural heritage in this thread as it is based on our Christian history.

But it hasn't been threatened or abandoned. It still exists because one of the most prevailing and powerful aspects of our identity and culture is our tolerance toward those who live a different lifestyle or practice a different faith.

Why has it been threatened or abandoned? What laws are now in place that says that we can't go about our daily lives or we are imprisoned for practising Christianity? Just because we accommodate those from other faiths or colour that doesn't mean we have no idea of who we are as a white indiginous population and forgotten our history. Our culture has just evolved that's all, just as other cultures must evolve, and has successfully adapted to represent the realities of a mixed society. That makes for a richer society and culture not a more impoverished one.

[d000hg]

English culture is not based on Christianity any more. In England, being a Christian is considered weird. If I talk about believing Jesus really did rise from the dead, and about tithing, and about evangelising, you won't think that's being English, you'll think I'm an indoctrinated simpleton.

[Diver]

Is Satanism a recognized religion?

No!

Guess I can't vote Other then

[thunderlizard]

Satanism

It's recognised in the Navy. You'd be most welcome there:
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/3948329.stm