British Jews

[Burdock]

Hush - he is scribing his proof at this very moment.

Greg- if only some Rapture regulars could get in on this thread!

[Chico]

I'm not serious in that I'm ready to convert (which I'm not). I'm serious because I'm a rationalist. If you prove there's a God, I wouldn't be much of a rationalist if I didn't accept that.

I'd prefer to conduct the discussion in public - then others may benefit from the proofs you bring.

No such thing as a rationalist.... everyone studies evidence based on their presuppositions... I assume you are in your late thirties raised and schooled with an "atheist" worldview..?

[Old Greg]

Im confused, I thought the central tenet to anti-zionism is that they (the zionists) occupy somebody elses country (ie Palestine)?

How come the the jewish faith get to have there own country anyway? What about other religions? The methodists. Or perhaps the scientologists? What if their religious book made out that the true homeland of scientologists was some volcanic island in the pacific? Should they be allowed to kick everyone off it and move in Tom Cruise et al just because their religion said it was so?

Isnt this what it comes down to? Zionists think they have a legal and just claim to a piece of land. The Anti-zionists think this claim is unjust and the current state of Israel to be an illegal occupation of said land? Or am I missing something?

The latest miss pickle is jewish, so it would be good to get my story straight before i meet the potential inlaws.

I don't see it as quite this simple, as we're not really talking about people who follow the Jewish faith but people who identify themselves as Jewish culturally. There have been plenty of non-religious people identifying themselves as Jewish and supporting Zionism. So the Scientologist/Methodist comparison doesn't work for me. But it would work for other peoples without a 'homeland' - Gypsies for example.

[pickle]

I don't see it as quite this simple, as we're not really talking about people who follow the Jewish faith but people who identify themselves as Jewish culturally. There have been plenty of non-religious people identifying themselves as Jewish and supporting Zionism. So the Scientologist/Methodist comparison doesn't work for me. But it would work for other peoples without a 'homeland' - Gypsies for example.

So if they arent religious, what is their claim to the land based on? If its not the historical religious texts?

[Old Greg]

So if they arent religious, what is their claim to the land based on? If its not the historical religious texts?

Yep - it's an odd one alright. It's both religious and historical:

God's promised land
This is where Jews used to live

I guess the non-religious Zionists don't use the religious argument.

[pickle]

Yep - it's an odd one alright. It's both religious and historical:

God's promised land
This is where Jews used to live

I guess the non-religious Zionists don't use the religious argument.

Hmm, now im really confused. The whole "gods promised land" thing doesnt hold any sway to be honest, you cant use quotes from a religious text or religious beliefs as evidence on a point of cross faith law, surley? Otherwise their would be chaos everywhere. But then Im a straight down the line, secularist.

So, any non-religious, pro-zionist jews have a decent argument as to why they should be allowed to keep the chunk of land they took (back?) from the palestinians?

[Old Greg]

Hmm, now im really confused. The whole "gods promised land" thing doesnt hold any sway to be honest, you cant use quotes from a religious text or religious beliefs as evidence on a point of cross faith law, surley? Otherwise their would be chaos everywhere. But then Im a straight down the line, secularist.

So, any non-religious, pro-zionist jews have a decent argument as to why they should be allowed to keep the chunk of land they took (back?) from the palestinians?

I'm sure they have cogent arguments but as I'm an anti-Zionsit, I don't want to misrepresent them. In general terms, I've heard arguments about the nature of the population before the establishment of Israel and about how locals were tricked into leaving their homes by Arab leadership, but I've always found them factually unconvincing. Mayve one of the supporters of the establihment of Israel post-war would like to offer a non-religious argument.

[Chico]

Hmm, now im really confused. The whole "gods promised land" thing doesnt hold any sway to be honest, you cant use quotes from a religious text or religious beliefs as evidence on a point of cross faith law, surley? Otherwise their would be chaos everywhere. But then Im a straight down the line, secularist.

So, any non-religious, pro-zionist jews have a decent argument as to why they should be allowed to keep the chunk of land they took (back?) from the palestinians?

Putting our legal hats on for a second, when there is a dispute over the tile deeds of a piece of land, the party that can can show that its title deeds go further back generally has ownership awarded unless the other party provides an authentic bill of sale. Essentially who has the oldest claim and hence most legitimate claim on the Land of Israel? It certainly is not the Palestinians or to be precise the Arabs.

[Old Greg]

Putting our legal hats on for a second, when there is a dispute over the tile deeds of a piece of land, the party that can can show that its title deeds go further back generally has ownership awarded unless the other party provides an authentic bill of sale. Essentially who has the oldest claim and hence most legitimate claim on the Land of Israel? It certainly is not the Palestinians or to be precise the Arabs.

So 'with our legal hats on', do we apply this to any territory that any people wish to claim off another? And remember, we've got our legal hats on here.

[pickle]

Putting our legal hats on for a second, when there is a dispute over the tile deeds of a piece of land, the party that can can show that its title deeds go further back generally has ownership awarded unless the other party provides an authentic bill of sale. Essentially who has the oldest claim and hence most legitimate claim on the Land of Israel? It certainly is not the Palestinians or to be precise the Arabs.

Eh, but where is this zionist title deed? Is it just some lines in the old testemant? What If im not christian or religious and think of the bible as a work of fiction?