Abolition of Slavery: Apologise or Not Apologise. Discuss.

[dang65]

I think you'll find, if you studied a little of this, and not just followed the propaganda, that if an owner did kill a slave they were prosecuted for murder and hanged.

Ah, excellent, we have a student of the subject here on the forum. Can you give us some figures for how many slave traders were prosecuted for murder and hanged? Here's a starting point, from quite late in the era of legal slave trading. Don't see much of an official policy of prosecution there, but then I'm not a student of the subject like yourself.

Anyways, I've just asked a Dane if they would apologise for Dublin. "Dublin?" was the reply...

Ah, yes, the old "how far back do you go?" argument. Well, the major invaders of this country - the Romans, the Vikings and the Normans - all did bad things. There were battles, massacres, rape and pillage. However (and I'm not trying to make excuses or wriggle out of this, so I'm sorry if it comes across like that), invasion is an act of war. In each of those cases there was resistance, there were pitched battles - the residents of this island destroyed Roman London, beat the Viking invaders at Stamford Bridge and continued to resist the Normans for several years after Hastings. All of those invaders then integrated with the population, brought laws and technology and systems which are integral to the way the civilisation of this country developed.

In Africa, we just pulled up at a coast fort, emptied the hold of tradeable goods, crammed in as many slaves as possible and buggered off. No benefit gained by those nations whatsoever, just the warlords and slavers.

Basically, as a nation, we didn't lose out by being invaded. Quite the opposite in fact.

[threaded]

Yes, the captain would have been prosecuted for murder, but he had died.

[cykophysh39]

The Church of England has apologised and is currently trying to work out a way of giving financial compensation for their part in the trade.

Yeah thought as much, I knew there was money involved in it somewhere.

[dang65]

I feel I am part of the most repressed minority - white, English, middle-class male hetrosexual. Why can't we whine like all the rest of the excuse mongers?

Uh, there certainly doesn't seem to be any shortage of whining from white, English, middle-class male heterosexuals these days. Your inherited supremacy being challenged is it? (n.b. I'm a white, English, middle-class male heterosexual, and I'm perfectly aware of the massive advantage that has given me in life, and which shows no sign of diminishing.)

I was not responsible for the slave trade and all this going back in history to try to change things that have already happened is pointless.

You really don't get it do you? It's not possible to change things. It is possible to acknowledge that they happened and that they were often done by the very same people who we revere as national heroes. We did it, the United Kingdom (aka England prior to 1 May 1707, anniversary fans), and we should admit it and apologise, not make pitiful, pedantic arguments about how it's not technically our fault.

[The Lone Gunman]

Not true. The big money came from the produce traded for slaves. It was a Golden Triangle, each side making more money - set off from Britain with a ship full of tradeable goods - cloth, gunpowder etc; exchange those goods for human beings, as many as you could cram into your tiny boat to cross the Atlantic; exchange the human beings for valuable goods which had been produced by slave labour - sugar, tobacco, cotton; return to Britain and sell the goods for enormous profit, and for use in this country's new industries - industries which gave our ancestors work and skills and good pay and conditions (for the time) and allowed our society to advance so quickly and wealthily.

As I said, Britain made its money transporting goods. It is just that thye were slaves.
The fact that we imported goods produced by slave labour is by the by. Those goods were legaly produced in countries where slavery was legal. The morlas of the day are not my issue.
In that period the factory workers in Britain were little better off than slaves either.
Most of us here are not decendants of those who made profits from slave trading ore slave produced goods.

As I have said (twice now). Our contrition as a nation was signified by the abolition of the slave trade and slavery. Had we not done so there would be no bicentenary to celebrate.
Do you realy think the Germans of today should feel any shame for what the Nazis did? Why should the Japanese feel any guilt for treating their prisoners the same way they would expect to be treated?

This demand for an apology is as racialy motivated as was the slave trade in the first place.

[cykophysh39]

This issue is not going to go away with a simple appology.
I am proud of the battle of britain, and D-Day Invasions, etc, as My Family had Direct involvement in these events, as I had Grandads, and Great Uncles who fought and some lost thier lives. As for the Welsh Coal Miners, My Family are Direct Descendants from this period, My Grandad worked in the Mines from the Age of 11, till the age of 50, when he had to retire because through working in the mines , he contracted Emphysema. The Mines never paid out for him.

History is littered with despicable events, and given the benefit of hindsight we are able to look back and say, how deplorable these event were, and learn from them and move on, does not mean we have to appologise for them.

To show any signs of Humanity, is to learn from our mistakes.
A sign of humanity is not be appologetic, as a species we can not advance if we don't learn and move on. Appologies are not part of the learning cycle, making sure these events don't happen again will be more beneficial.

[dang65]

As I said, Britain made its money transporting goods. It is just that they were slaves. The fact that we imported goods produced by slave labour is by the by. Those goods were legally produced in countries where slavery was legal.

You're having a laugh, right? Who do you think owned those plantations in the West Indies and the Americas. The same people that owned the mills and factories of England, that's who. Those "countries" were British colonies (including America at that time, obviously). And the legality of the Trade is exactly the issue. The fact that Britain allowed it to continue legally, with human beings considered as cargo and enormous profits being made from goods which were produced without any labour costs.

The morals of the day are not my issue.

Nor are the morals of today by the sound of it.

In that period the factory workers in Britain were little better off than slaves either.

This is an absolute myth. In Britain hours were long and hard, children worked in mills and factories, and workers had few rights, but that is not in any way comparable to being transported from your place of birth, never seeing your family or home again, being whipped, tortured, left to die if you fell sick, having no freedom to move anywhere... think about it, for god's sake.

Most of us here are not decendants of those who made profits from slave trading or slave produced goods.

We are a nation. We profit collectively to this day from the actions of our ancestors, and the Slave Trade was a massive contributor to this country's wealth and development. I personally have absolutely no idea whether my ancestors had anything to do with the Slave Trade directly. I'm adopted. I could come from bloody anywhere, I dunno. But I was born and raised in a very wealthy country and I know where that wealth came from.

As I have said (twice now). Our contrition as a nation was signified by the abolition of the slave trade and slavery. Had we not done so there would be no bicentenary to celebrate. Do you really think the Germans of today should feel any shame for what the Nazis did? Why should the Japanese feel any guilt for treating their prisoners the same way they would expect to be treated?

This demand for an apology is as racially motivated as was the slave trade in the first place.

It's true that a few people saw the light and forced change after many years of campaigning. Honourable people. I take it that you are descended from one of them then? You seem very willing to take pride in their work - "Had we not done so there would be no bicentenary to celebrate."

The Germans of today do feel shame for what the Nazis did. Well, a lot of them do anyway. And Germany has repeatedly apologised for the actions of its people during that era. Many Germans resisted the Nazis - and were imprisoned, tortured and killed for their efforts - but they are rarely celebrated. Imagine if, on the next anniversary of the end of the Nazi era, the Germans just produced a load of stamps commemorating those people and said, "Look, we fought against the Nazis, that's a good enough apology."

And there has been a long running campaign to get the Japanese to apologise for the POW treatment, and they just have (partially) apologised for the treatment of women forced to become sex slaves.

[The Lone Gunman]

We are a nation. We profit collectively to this day from the actions of our ancestors, and the Slave Trade was a massive contributor to this country's wealth and development.

We seem to be a nation in this context. Collectively responsible.

It's true that a few people saw the light and forced change after many years of campaigning. Honourable people.

We seem to be seperate individuals in this context.


Which is it?
If we are collectively responsible then we have made our apology and reparations.
If not then the people who were responsible are long dead.

[dang65]

We seem to be a nation in this context [responsibility for the Slave Trade]. Collectively responsible.

We seem to be seperate individuals in this context [credit for the abolition of the Slave Trade].

Which is it?
If we are collectively responsible then we have made our apology and reparations. If not then the people who were responsible are long dead.

That's what I'm trying to say. It's ok to take national credit for the great acts of the ancestors of our nation, of course. I take great pride in many things we did long before I was born.

But so many people seem to be completely unwilling to acknowledge national responsibility for allowing the Slave Trade to continue for so long. That's the problem. And it's a national apology which is required. By our leaders, our Prime Minister, our Sovereign.

It won't magically rewrite history, of course it won't. But it would bring a great amount of healing. This last week has shown what a disgracefully arrogant nation we are. Fingers are endlessly pointed - "But the Africans sold the slaves to us in the first place", "France and Spain and Portugal did it too", "It was 'just as bad' working in British factories". Anything but acknowledge what we did.

Just acknowledge it. You won't be admitting to individual guilt, any more than the apology would be given to an individual. It's a national apology to a diaspora of people who are still to this day born into disadvantage. That's all it is.

[DimPrawn]

Lets skip the apology and cut straight to compensation.

Where there's blame, there's a claim!