The (Indian) FTV's are growing

[DimPrawn]

There is nothing that can be done. The government won't and don't listen/care. The chav classes will vote the New Lie back in so it won't go away.

Therefore my energy is going on looking after no.1 and then cashing in and escaping the UK before it all goes tits up and crashes.

[snaw]

That's a strange thing to say.

We know 100% that New Labour are behind this and actively support "inshoring" of cheap labour to destroy the home grown IT business.

So you may as well vote Labour?

Don't know what it's like in your world but I've spent the last few years working with quite a chunk of Indian and Pakistani IT workers in London, and you know what - they work hard, they've got good skils and shock horror - my rate has gone up.

Well feck me, how's that possible I ask you???

Saying we should be taking from Europe ignores the fact that clearly we can't get enough from Europe if we're importing so many from outside, and personally these are exactly the sort of immigrants I thought we wanted.

[The Lone Gunman]

It is suspicious that Gordon the dip hasn't started charging for FTVs.

If they were realy needed then it would be a nice little earner for HMT.
If they cost 15K each then companies would think twice about using them.

[NoddY]

You lot still don't get it. Globalisation means a reduction in the value of work. The evidence is there if you look for it:

Real wages have fallen since the 1970's

The middle classes on benefits (Working Tax Credits)

Devaluing of education (why educate your own children when you can import cheap foreign labour?)

The emergence of the 'working poor' especially in the US
Multiple incomes to support one household

Tax revenue shift away from labour taxes (i.e. income tax) to consumption taxes (i.e. 'Green' taxes)

De-mechanisation - machines are more expensive than people (e.g. why follow the modernist dream of a robot hoovering your house when you can import a Filipino woman because she is cheaper?)

[DimPrawn]

(e.g. why follow the modernist dream of a robot hoovering your house when you can import a Filipino woman because she is cheaper?)

And better looking. Although saying that I quite fancy the Dyson XL5000+ Turbo VII

[XLMonkey]

Sadly, that is true.

It is true, but I don't see anything sad about it at all - importing skills from other countries where its cheaper is good for the economy, and I'd be disappointed if the Tories voted for anything different.

BTW, the very definition of a skills shortage is that there is an imbalance between supply and demand, driving higher prices. If its cheaper to pay to import someone from India than it is to source locally, then by definition the prices are too high (and there's a skills shortage).

What it does mean is that if you're getting dislodged by imports, either drop your rates or get new skills. There's no reason that anyone should be paying you top dollar if they can get the same output cheaper elsewhere. Other people only owe you a living in socialist states.

[DimPrawn]

If it were a level playing field then I agree XL monkey.

Sadly, when BT imports 10,000 Indian nationals onto projects in the UK via an Intra Company transfer visa running for 6 months, it is able to pay them a small fraction of the UK wage, as the Indian Nationals are not liable to pay any UK income taxes, as they are resident abroad and non-domiciled for tax purposes. What they earn goes straight in their pockets. They can also buy books, training in the UK and claim all the VAT back when they leave. No UK permie can do this.

If this were possible for all UK based workers, funnily enough they would be a LOT cheaper to hire and could compete.

[The Lone Gunman]

It is true, but I don't see anything sad about it at all - importing skills from other countries where its cheaper is good for the economy, and I'd be disappointed if the Tories voted for anything different.

BTW, the very definition of a skills shortage is that there is an imbalance between supply and demand, driving higher prices. If its cheaper to pay to import someone from India than it is to source locally, then by definition the prices are too high (and there's a skills shortage).

What it does mean is that if you're getting dislodged by imports, either drop your rates or get new skills. There's no reason that anyone should be paying you top dollar if they can get the same output cheaper elsewhere. Other people only owe you a living in socialist states.

The problem with that scenario is that most of the UK has debts based on their incomes.
If everybody has to compete by droping their income demands then they will not be able to service their debts.
They will then have to sell thier houses and the market will crash.

How can it be good for the economy?
If I can't get my high rate I can't buy my next Porsche. The Porsche garage will have to lay off some of its staff so they will no longer be able to afford to shop at Booths. The trickle down will be catastrophic.

We can only subscribe to a global economy if it is available globally. Currently it is not.

[XLMonkey]

Real wages have fallen since the 1970's

No, they haven't (although they have only grown very very slowly).

For the UK (page 4), from 1970 to 2001
http://www.nuffield.ox.ac.uk/users/n...bourMarket.pdf

and from 2001 to 2006 (you need to download the CSV file)

http://www.statistics.gov.uk/STATBAS...t.asp?vlnk=392

[Euro-commuter]

The problem with that scenario is that most of the UK has debts based on their incomes.
If everybody has to compete by droping their income demands then they will not be able to service their debts.
They will then have to sell thier houses and the market will crash.

You could always take your money and go and live in India.

Oh no, you couldn't: the Indian government won't let you.