November Budget - Stop Public sector IR35 rules coming into the Private sector

[pr1]

I've had to work extremely hard to get to where I got to; I had absolutely zero formal qualifications, and never went to school due to some suspect and slightly hippy choices from my parents. I was determined I wanted to be successful and slogged my balls off to blag a place in a college, get my first job and climb the ladder. Since then its taken more hard work and debt at times to get to where I got to today. I could've just as easily stuck it in a very average job at my first company and had a job for life there, but I didn't want to be average.

Did I have a loving and supporting home? Yes. Was it in a rough area? No. Did I have therefore have more access to resources than some? Probably. However, I see so many people electing to waste time and energy on video games or other things that simply don't matter, and then moan immediately after about how their life is turning out.

I'm not saying everyone is too lazy, but a good 70% probably are.

If everyone did what you did, who would drive your uber or serve your coffee in the morning?

[mattfx]

Just because you are doing comparatively well in life you shouldn't assume everyone who isn't is "too lazy"

I've had to work extremely hard to get to where I got to; I had absolutely zero formal qualifications, and never went to school due to some suspect and slightly hippy choices from my parents. I was determined I wanted to be successful and slogged my balls off to blag a place in a college, get my first job and climb the ladder. Since then its taken more hard work and debt at times to get to where I got to today. I could've just as easily stuck it in a very average job at my first company and had a job for life there, but I didn't want to be average.

Did I have a loving and supporting home? Yes. Was it in a rough area? No. Did I have therefore have more access to resources than some? Probably. However, I see so many people electing to waste time and energy on video games or other things that simply don't matter, and then moan immediately after about how their life is turning out.

I'm not saying everyone is too lazy, but a good 70% probably are.

[mattfx]

All great fun, but totally wrong.

We should be emphasising that we are suppliers of knowledge and skills, operating in the exact same way as any other business and engaged on a B2B basis, making all this tulip about "we're not employees" totally unnecessary. Even Andy Hallett agreed with me on that point.

Sadly it's the agencies that have got us into this position by selling us as temporary workers under their control. That is what needs to be broken.

But let's be honest; it's not the same as a professional services company / reseller is it? We haven't had to cold call prospects, or advertise, keep up accreditation with vendors. We have had to submit a list of skills to an agent who happens to have work. It's a unique market and you're right; because of the similarities of use finding gigs to permies finding jobs we are viewed in the same way.

Whilst we may also be delivering in a B2B manner, as many people have observed the hiring manager / PM at clientco is hiring you, not your business to deliver. Even if there is a substitution clause in your contract.

To sell that argument of being a "true" B2B business, you'd need someone who has only ever gone direct. I suspect those people are very few and far between.

[pr1]

Firstly, I don't earn anywhere near that. There are many of us with very modest day rates. I could go back to permie land tomorrow and probably take home the same wage as my current contract by the time you factor in benefits and a 8 weeks of bench time, but i'd rather not. So yeah, the stress of not having a job is real for me, not being able to afford to live if I don't find additional work relatively quickly is also real. However I have a good support network and am fortunate my parents would if pushed, probably help me out for a month or two.

The waitress has many options besides working the one job, many which she can do at home. Survey taking and Profit Accumulator are just two examples of zero cost platforms she could use to top her income up and help make her life more secure. But she probably won't want to do that by the time shes super tired from working her zero hours contract and sat around at home for a few hours catching up on the goggle box.

I also earn less, I used the approx average rate from the IPSE freelancer confidence index latest data for my example (which was £489) which is the kind of number a HMRC researcher would find and use to form their counter argument
(https://www.ipse.co.uk/resource/free...-2017-pdf.html)

Opportunity is everywhere but usually people are too lazy to look or act upon it.

Just because you are doing comparatively well in life you shouldn't assume everyone who isn't is "too lazy"

[bobspud]

All great fun, but totally wrong.

We should be emphasising that we are suppliers of knowledge and skills, operating in the exact same way as any other business and engaged on a B2B basis, making all this tulip about "we're not employees" totally unnecessary. Even Andy Hallett agreed with me on that point.

Sadly it's the agencies that have got us into this position by selling us as temporary workers under their control. That is what needs to be broken.

But technically I have never ever worked with any client that had any form of control over me other than agreed deliverables. Most of the work I have ever done its a struggle to find the agent after the invoices start rolling in.

[malvolio]

All great fun, but totally wrong.

We should be emphasising that we are suppliers of knowledge and skills, operating in the exact same way as any other business and engaged on a B2B basis, making all this tulip about "we're not employees" totally unnecessary. Even Andy Hallett agreed with me on that point.

Sadly it's the agencies that have got us into this position by selling us as temporary workers under their control. That is what needs to be broken.

[mattfx]

It needs someone with big travel expenses and four different clients around the country in a given year, where they can make a living outside IR35 but are running below NMW outside IR35.

Ideally yes, you're spot on - that's exactly who is needed.

[mattfx]

Imagine you're sat on the This Morning sofa with Philip and Holly - "I'm paid £500 a day but I don't know whether I'll be in work three months from now, I shouldn't have to pay the same tax rate as an employee" - next to a single mum zero hours minimum wage waitress who doesn't know if she will be able afford to pay her rent again this month because work didn't need her this week - like I said, good luck

imo the best chance of a winning argument is comparing the similarities between "us" and BigCo's, if you try to compare "us" [being different] to employees you have a much more uphill battle

Firstly, I don't earn anywhere near that. There are many of us with very modest day rates. I could go back to permie land tomorrow and probably take home the same wage as my current contract by the time you factor in benefits and a 8 weeks of bench time, but i'd rather not. So yeah, the stress of not having a job is real for me, not being able to afford to live if I don't find additional work relatively quickly is also real. However I have a good support network and am fortunate my parents would if pushed, probably help me out for a month or two.

The waitress has many options besides working the one job, many which she can do at home. Survey taking and Profit Accumulator are just two examples of zero cost platforms she could use to top her income up and help make her life more secure. But she probably won't want to do that by the time shes super tired from working her zero hours contract and sat around at home for a few hours catching up on the goggle box.

Opportunity is everywhere but usually people are too lazy to look or act upon it.

[northernladyuk]

Imagine you're sat on the This Morning sofa with Philip and Holly - "I'm paid £500 a day but I don't know whether I'll be in work three months from now, I shouldn't have to pay the same tax rate as an employee" - next to a single mum zero hours minimum wage waitress who doesn't know if she will be able afford to pay her rent again this month because work didn't need her this week - like I said, good luck

imo the best chance of a winning argument is comparing the similarities between "us" and BigCo's, if you try to compare "us" [being different] to employees you have a much more uphill battle

It needs someone with big travel expenses and four different clients around the country in a given year, where they can make a living outside IR35 but are running below NMW outside IR35.

[pr1]

Not being rude, but 0 hour contracts usually apply to low skills jobs or when employing those with a lack of skills so if the employee is useless they are easy to get rid of. Obviously there are other benefits such as not having to pay people on quiet days etc.

If we are all so busy focusing on the counter argument rather than trying to put our point across then these changes are going to come into effect and we will have no-one to blame but ourselves.

Anyone who hasn't written to their MP to at least voice a concern has absolutely no right to moan if these changes get pushed through.

Don't be a Negative Nancy - try and make a difference.

Imagine you're sat on the This Morning sofa with Philip and Holly - "I'm paid £500 a day but I don't know whether I'll be in work three months from now, I shouldn't have to pay the same tax rate as an employee" - next to a single mum zero hours minimum wage waitress who doesn't know if she will be able afford to pay her rent again this month because work didn't need her this week - like I said, good luck

imo the best chance of a winning argument is comparing the similarities between "us" and BigCo's, if you try to compare "us" [being different] to employees you have a much more uphill battle