Vote Leave chief who created £350m NHS lie on bus admits leaving EU could be an error

[PurpleGorilla]

And I guess the magic money tree will provide the access fees to the single market?

A big BTL tax for foreign nationals and non UK residents would help pay for the access.

[AtW]

A big BTL tax for foreign nationals and non UK residents would help pay for the access.

350 mln per week?

[bobspud]

None of you make any sensible point about what is wrong with the EU as distinct from all the other totally useless, corrupt governments around the entire globe. (And that certainly includes ours)

Here you go then:

The EU has never once in its existence filed a set of audited accounts for the billions of euros that it receives and spends on it's members behalf. The only whistle blower that ever tried to stand up and unearth the truth about massive corruption and lost funds was hounded out of her job and profession... That was nearly 20 years ago and since her departure not a single thing changed apart from some banks lying about the financial state of Greece and a flood of other countries so they could get into the club.

You cannot build an organisation that always expects more in an environment with finite resources. At some point that bubble must burst and then a new leaner thing takes its natural place over the corpse of the old dinosaur until the cycle repeats.

Regardless of the pain the EU must perish so that the Millennials can remake something new that is less based on baby boomer greed. With this in mind I believe the next big thing will be something like government as a platform or some of the other cross country initiatives that are based on citizen needs not diplomatic lifestyles...

[darmstadt]

Here you go then:

The EU has never once in its existence filed a set of audited accounts for the billions of euros that it receives and spends on it's members behalf. The only whistle blower that ever tried to stand up and unearth the truth about massive corruption and lost funds was hounded out of her job and profession... That was nearly 20 years ago and since her departure not a single thing changed apart from some banks lying about the financial state of Greece and a flood of other countries so they could get into the club.

You cannot build an organisation that always expects more in an environment with finite resources. At some point that bubble must burst and then a new leaner thing takes its natural place over the corpse of the old dinosaur until the cycle repeats.

Regardless of the pain the EU must perish so that the Millennials can remake something new that is less based on baby boomer greed. With this in mind I believe the next big thing will be something like government as a platform or some of the other cross country initiatives that are based on citizen needs not diplomatic lifestyles...

https://fullfact.org/europe/did-audi...ign-eu-budget/

[northernladyuk]

Here you go then:

The EU has never once in its existence filed a set of audited accounts for the billions of euros that it receives and spends on it's members behalf. The only whistle blower that ever tried to stand up and unearth the truth about massive corruption and lost funds was hounded out of her job and profession... That was nearly 20 years ago and since her departure not a single thing changed apart from some banks lying about the financial state of Greece and a flood of other countries so they could get into the club.

You cannot build an organisation that always expects more in an environment with finite resources. At some point that bubble must burst and then a new leaner thing takes its natural place over the corpse of the old dinosaur until the cycle repeats.

Regardless of the pain the EU must perish so that the Millennials can remake something new that is less based on baby boomer greed. With this in mind I believe the next big thing will be something like government as a platform or some of the other cross country initiatives that are based on citizen needs not diplomatic lifestyles...

There's some nuance in their that's worth exploring for the sake of balance. Broadly, the accounts are fair and accurate but they reveal material errors in payments.



http://fullfact.org/europe/did-auditors-sign-eu-budget/

[BlasterBates]

That is a very narrow way of looking at it. The inability of Southern European economies and of Ireland to devalue currency or to set interest rates has caused massive hardship and continues to do so. Of course, that doesn't mean that Brexit is a good idea.

There was also pretty similar hardship in Iceland and Romania and they weren't in the Euro. Having your savings wiped out as they did in Iceland is not good. The recession in Romania was brutal, and they had to be bailed out by the IMF. The Romanian interest rates had to be jacked up but their currency never appreciated gain.

The problems were caused by debt and one can have debates as to whether they would be better inside or outside the Euro but to attribute the hardship simply to the Euro is incorrect. Outside the Euro the Greeks would have defaulted completely which I suspect would have been a far worse situation than they are currently.

[AtW]

Has UK Govt got audited accounts?

[northernladyuk]

There was also pretty similar hardship in Iceland and Romania and they weren't in the Euro. Having your savings wiped out as they did in Iceland is not good. The recession in Romania was brutal, and they had to be bailed out by the IMF. The Romanian interest rates had to be jacked up but their currency never appreciated gain.

The problems were caused by debt and one can have debates as to whether they would be better inside or outside the Euro but to attribute the hardship simply to the Euro is incorrect. Outside the Euro the Greeks would have defaulted completely which I suspect would have been a far worse situation than they are currently.

You are looking at the way economies react to the crisis. In the case of Ireland, there was a simultaneous house price bubble and debt bubble alongside a huge expansion in house building. The state had no ability to raise interest rates early to manage this. Not to say there weren't policy errors as well.

In the case of Spain etc., there was no way for the markets to devalue the currency to retain competitiveness against Northern Europe.

[PurpleGorilla]

350 mln per week?

Open Europe and HoC Library estimate that it would cost -12% to -25% of what we currently pay for full membership if we use Norway's financial relationship as a guide. And that is after all the money that comes back.

https://fullfact.org/europe/norway-eu-payments/

So on that basis.

£14bn * 0.12 / 52 = £32.3mil a week better off with EEA using the more conservative figure.

[BlasterBates]

You are looking at the way economies react to the crisis. In the case of Ireland, there was a simultaneous house price bubble and debt bubble alongside a huge expansion in house building. The state had no ability to raise interest rates early to manage this. Not to say there weren't policy errors as well.

In the case of Spain etc., there was no way for the markets to devalue the currency to retain competitiveness against Northern Europe.

So explanations for Spain and Ireland, but what about Romania and other countries outside the Euro? Plenty of economic recessions and bursted debt bubbles out there, Japan in the 1990's South-East Asia a few years later and of course Argentina, not to mention Russia.

You say the Irish would have raised interest rates, but why would they?, the US and the UK didn't when house prices were in a bubble, that is a theoretical argument that they could have done, but central banks use the RPI to set interest rates not asset prices. In any case there are much better ways to deflate asset bubbles than interest rates, where Ireland did have control, such as rules on how much debt can be issued and how it is covered. Germany doesn't have a housing bubble because of the rules, i.e. taxation and debt issuance.

Countries can mismanage their economies outside or inside the Euro, you can´t stop them doing it. Argentina mismanaged their economy by raising huge Dollar and DM debts and then even after their currency devalued and they'd defaulted simply took the opportunity to run it even further into the ground.