Fail Britannia

[northernladyuk]

Right, but they're our lying, backpedaling, duplicitous scumbags, afterall, and we at least have the possibility of unseating them.

How has unseating the UK political class worked so far? All you can get is another flavour. The Tony Benn view of democratic accountability is all very well in theory, but in practice I'd rather rely on the protection of EU institutions the domestic ballot paper, to protect rights and conditions. Not that either is great, but a choice between two crap options is still a choice, and we don;t even know what one of the options looks like yet.

[BrilloPad]

Even economists with more understanding of these things than sas and NLYUK (hard to believe, I know) said they could not predict the outcome. And we still can't predict the outcome.

I find it hard to believe an economist was honest.

The outcome will depend on what the UK makes of it.

[VectraMan]

But I could say the same about the Remainers - I think most have been duped into thinking that anything other than the Blairite way of voting to remain as part of the EU is nothing short of idiocy and that you are siding with old people and racists.

I wouldn't disagree necessarily. It seems to me that probably 90% of the voters, on both sides, had no real idea of what they were voting for or why. Which is why having a referendum was such a silly idea in the first place. How ridiculous is it that we put an incredibly complicated economic decision in the hands of people who may not even be able to add up?

I am more hopeful for the future of the UK for my kids being out of the EU than being pulled into an EU superstate with no choice about how things are run or what decisions are made.

Even if there's the slightest truth in the EU-superstate fear-mongering, the only way we'd be pulled in, and the only way we wouldn't have a choice about how things are run is if the world does return to the days of empires and the UK is taken by force. And if that happens it doesn't really matter whether we Brexit or not.

[sasguru]

How has unseating the UK political class worked so far? .

Boris Pffefel Johnson, Jacob Rees Mogg and his nanny are in the ascendant.
It's a grassroots, working class revolution.

[Paddy]

Not all others, thankfully (hopefully). I am very confident that harking back to those terrible times isn't what those who voted for Brexit voted for.

To dig up the atrocities of our forebears as a reason why it was a bad idea to leave Europe is a bit of tulipty perspective. The article was probably penned by Tony Bliar and fed to someone willing to take a handout.

If people want to focus on the past as a means to denigrate the UK, to look at the age of Empire as being a stick to beat us with, then I think we should do the same. I think we should start to write up about the atrocities of the Roman Empire - to brutalise the image of the Italians as rapists and wanton invaders, hell-bent on domination at the expense of everyone who stood in their path. It is a bit pathetic don't you think?

The Great Repeal Bill seems like a simple way to start with a very complex job. Pull the whole lot of existing EU law into UK law and then work from there to remove excessive red tape, remove the working rights of the proletariat, remove stupid EU law and unwind ourselves from the mess that we are in.

I don't see the UK as a global superpower, I don't want the UK to be part of a global superpower and that is why I was happy with the leave vote. So what if we lose some of the snotty financial services industry? I would rather have a poorer country than one that was part of the great EU experiment.

It is very easy for the remainers to say how badly it is all going, what doom is over the horizon, how all brexit voters are narrow minded bigots who dream of the days of Glory and did not think of the repercussions of their vote and how the Gov has no plan. But I am still happy to be getting out, happy to not be part of the corrupt EU scam. What some nitwit from the US thinks is the reason for it is neither here nor there. He has bigger political problems in his own country than we do.

Lack of time prevents me from a full response therefore in brief.

I am old enough to have been privileged to speak to survivors of WW1 and WW2 not just in the UK but in my world travels. I have spoken with Nazis and those occupied by them and those occupied by the UK and allied forces. The UK committed horrendous atrocities but history is written by the victors. Rape, pillage, massacres and genocide by the British ran in to millions, much of which is well documented. History is passed from generation to generation hence why there is still much resentment from the UK’s former colonies and former occupied countries.

I have spoken with people living today who recall British troops ransacking their home and stealing every one of their possessions and destroying the crops on their land. Unfortunately the legacy of the British Empire is still live and some of my neighbours being in the upper echelons of rank and class want Brexit for reasons of Empire revival in one way or another.

Before SB and Vet come back on how many potatoes they pealed in Colchester, I may add that I am aware of those who sacrificed themselves in the two great wars. My grandfather lost both legs and was awarded the George Cross and my father was disabled after surviving his ship being sunk by the Japanese. Neither of them claimed any war pension or compensation.

You are delusional about red-tape. Red tape in import and export has been considerably reduced since joining the EU. However, the UK seem to gold-plate any regulations to suit our own civil servants; health and safety is one example. Moreover, the UK has picked and chosen which EU rules to be implemented as and when it suites them. Opting out of the compulsory two year guarantee for consumer goods is another example.

Brexit doom has already struck for those with European connections, in fact close to me it is has already cost UK jobs

I have to leave it there for now… off to Heathrow.

[BrilloPad]

But we weren't. It was going to be enshrined in EU law that the UK would not be joining any further political and economic union.
We had our own currency, access to the largest single market in the world, everthing was cushty.
The EU wasn't stopping us solving homegrown UK problems.
Bloody hell, we could even have controlled EU migration using EU laws (no claiming benefits unless in full time employment) and/or putting in Swiss style barriers to residency, which the EU acceded to.
In other words we really could have had our cake and eaten it.

Then you can blame "Call me Dave" for fooking it up. He could also have controlled non EU immigration. He was completely out of touch for how angry the country feels.

[sasguru]

Then you can blame "Call me Dave" for fooking it up. He could also have controlled non EU immigration. He was completely out of touch for how angry the country feels.

Aye that's true.

[jamesbrown]

How has unseating the UK political class worked so far? All you can get is another flavour. The Tony Benn view of democratic accountability is all very well in theory, but in practice I'd rather rely on the protection of EU institutions the domestic ballot paper, to protect rights and conditions. Not that either is great, but a choice between two crap options is still a choice, and we don;t even know what one of the options looks like yet.

Your faith is misplaced IMHO. The UK ranks very favorably (roughly alongside Germany) in the degree of corruption in its political institutions, and we're well below average among the EU member states. You may prefer the more left-leaning institutions of the EU, but political persuasion is hardly a proxy for good governance. The EU is not more than the sum of its parts. The differences within the constituent parts of the UK may be large, but the differences between countries within the EU are much greater, and the scale of the EU embeds a structural problem w/r to adequate representation.

[northernladyuk]

Your faith is misplaced IMHO. The UK ranks very favorably (roughly alongside Germany) in the degree of corruption in its political institutions, and we're well below average among the EU member states.

Corruption was not the criticism. The UK political system is fixed in favour of the ruling class, who control the mainstream media etc. etc.

If you think the British electorate has an honest opportunity to control matters such as employment rights, then you're living in cloud cuckoo land

[chopper]

So how do you think most old people and racists voted?

They probably rocked up at the polling station with their own pen, I imagine.

However, most importantly they voted. The youths, the 18-24 brigade, decided staying at home and moaning about the result later in true snowflake style was the better democratic mechanism. At least moaning can be done from the comfort of their home whilst glued to Twitter/Facebook/whatever.

I believe turnout of 18-24 year olds was 64%, with turnout of over 65s being 90%.