Iraq - The End game

[sasguru]

I'll explain below and I promise to try and keep it as simple as possible as I can sense you are floundering somewhat.

Not at all

On the other hand, it would have bought us time to prepare our own position and allowed him to continue with what was his real agenda, that of conquering in the East. Over time he and Stalin would have fought themselves to a standstill leaving us as the pre-eminent force in a new Europe. Pure national self-interest.

In 1940 it was not at all clear that Hitler wanted to invade the Soviet Union

You see this is where your logic falls to the ground. If you genuinely DO believe in fighting for what is morally right, and you agree with me that intervening in places like Rwanda and Sudan is the correct thing to do from a humanitarian and altruistic perspective, how do you reconcile that statement with your previously stated belief that, and I am quoting you here....British (and most other countries) foreign policy has always (quite rightly) been about defending the national interest ? It can in no way be construed as in our own national best interests to commit troops to such a venture. Wholly contradictory you have to agree!


Perhaps I haven't made myself clear. My bad. Let me try to do so.

In an ideal world with unlimited resources I would advocate being like the Guardian angel of the world and intervening in every genocidal war. In that case, we could justify Iraq as one of many.

In the real world, with limited resources, we have to look after our interests.
In general I bleieve our interests lie in a prosperous, democratic and peaceful world and so any intervention we make need not conflict with the moral high ground.

However in Iraq, our politicians have connived and lied. Not only have our national interests not been helped but we have also lost the moral high ground. A double whammy loss.

Game, Set, and Match to SB again!


Dream on

NEXT!!!!

...

[Ardesco]

What a naive perspective you have Ardesco. You have no conception of the resources that were available to Stalin and the ruthlessness with which he would have deployed them regardless of cost. Besides, once Hitler had headed East and become too embroiled with matters there, who is to say that we could not have tacitly fomented uprisings in all the occupied western states forcing him to either deploy valuable troops back from the Eastern front, or alternatively allow us to move in and gain a foothold we would never relinquish? We could have stitched him up like a kipper had we chosen to and in doing so benefited from many of the perks the US of A received in being seen as the benign saviours of western europe. It could all have been so different had we chosen to be that ruthless. The mistake some of you limited thinkers make is to childishly believe that just because we tell someone like Hitler our stance one day that we are somehow bound by that further down the line. Thank God the likes of you are tied up as code monkeys and not involved in the machinations of governance.

Strange how hitler was winning against the Russians and forcing them to use the good old fall back and hope the enemy dies in the Siberian winter tactic...

The fact remains that Germany was technologically superior to Russia at the time and quite capable of winning a war against them. If he hadn't over stretched himself by fighting on multiple fronts and taken some advise from his most senior generals he would have beaten Russia.

[Logie]

In the real world, with limited resources, we have to look after our interests.
In general I bleieve our interests lie in a prosperous, democratic and peaceful world

Ah, the irony of that statement.

[shaunbhoy]

In 1940 it was not at all clear that Hitler wanted to invade the Soviet Union

It was if you read his fecking book!!

[AtW]

Shaunbhoy is that mental patient in the news the other day and I claim my £5 note printed in Scotland.

[sasguru]

Ah, the irony of that statement.

Why is it ironic? I didn't mean it to be so.

Prosperous because we're a trading nation.
Democratic because democratic countries are slow to war
Peaceful for obvious reasons.

[sasguru]

It was if you read his fecking book!!

So you're saying the rantings of Mein Kampf written by Hitler as a young man should have formed the basis of our foreign policy?

[Logie]

Why is it ironic? I didn't mean it to be so.

Couple of clues for you:

1. In the real world, with limited resources
2. prosperous, democratic and peaceful world

[shaunbhoy]

Strange how hitler was winning against the Russians and forcing them to use the good old fall back and hope the enemy dies in the Siberian winter tactic...

Nothing strange about Hitler's initial gains at all, Stalin was quite happy to sacrifice the likes of Ukraine to buy time. He had little time for them as a people. In fact the Ukrainians virtually regarded the advancing Germans as liberators to begin with.

The fact remains that Germany was technologically superior to Russia at the time and quite capable of winning a war against them.

The USA was technically superior to North Vietnam and quite capable of winning a war against them. What does that prove?

If he hadn't over stretched himself by fighting on multiple fronts and taken some advise from his most senior generals he would have beaten Russia.

The fact is though that he DID overstretch himself, and at the time the war started to turn against him (at Stalingrad) he was not really fighting on multiple fronts to any real extent. A few minor skirmishes in North Africa and the Balkans coupled with some policing duties in occupied countries was all that was preventing him fully deploying on the Eastern Front. You really ought to read up on the subject, you'd be fascinated and would not look so stupid to those who have studied WWII. If you don't believe me, ask AtW how fantastic the Russkies were.

[shaunbhoy]

So you're saying the rantings of Mein Kampf written by Hitler as a young man should have formed the basis of our foreign policy?

They formed the basis of his, which I think you will agree had a bearing upon what ours ended up being. In light of the fact that he spent a number of years in the build-up to the war embarking upon realising many of them, we ought to have at least factored some of them into our thoughts. Don't you?