Cheney endorses simulated drowning

[sunnysan]

Wtf

If torture was so effective at finding the truth, then why has it been all but uninanimously discredited but so called "civilised nations".

Torture is good at extracting confessions and politically expedient statements.

If I was tortured becuase I for example, didnt pay my tax, what would be easier for them, to shock my scrotum until I admitted to tax offences or to uncover during a drowning session that I did not actually commit any offence?

Once you are torturing someone, you are not looking for the truth, the "truth" has been decided and a confession is needed to back it up.

[Ardesco]

Torture is only useful in extracting information that you know an individual has, but is not willing to tell you and can be verified by somebody else. Until thier information has been verified it should not be treated as gospel.

Torturing somebody until they admit to something/anything does not work as they will eventually make up something to stop the pain.

An example of how torture works is as follows:

Mr Jones we will slowly slice your finger off 1mm by 1mm until you tell us where the bomb that you made that is about to blow up is located. We know that you know where it is due to confession/other irrefutable intelligence. When you tell us where it is we will stop. We will know if you are telling us the truth or not as we can go to the location in question and check.

Torture does not work in the following situation:

Mr Jones we think you have done something wrong but don't know what it is and we don't care. We are going to slice bits off your body until you tell us any old thing that validates our reasons for cutting bits off your body. Start squeeling in your own time....

[Mailman]

If torture was so effective at finding the truth, then why has it been all but uninanimously discredited but so called "civilised nations".

Discredited? More like the softc0cks in the west dont want to use it cause they want to look nice and namby pamby to the pinko leftie lesbo's who think the world is a box of fluffies!

Mailman

[Ardesco]

My version isn't wrong, it's just a regional variation... honest....

[XperTest]

This is a new one, one Ive not seen trotted out before. Thank god you are around to clear things up and now we know the invasion of Iraq is because of gitmo!

It's a good thing you know what you're talking about: fairly common knowledge as far as I know. Read this excerpt from this article

A few months after September 11th, the U.S. gained custody of its first high-ranking Al Qaeda figure, Ibn al-Sheikh al-Libi. He had run bin Laden’s terrorist training camp in Khalden, Afghanistan, and was detained in Pakistan. Zacarias Moussaoui, who was already in U.S. custody, and Richard Reid, the Shoe Bomber, had both spent time at the Khalden camp. At the F.B.I.’s field office in New York, Jack Cloonan, an officer who had worked for the agency since 1972, struggled to maintain control of the legal process in Afghanistan. C.I.A. and F.B.I. agents were vying to take possession of Libi. Cloonan, who worked with Dan Coleman on anti-terrorism cases for many years, said he felt that “neither the Moussaoui case nor the Reid case was a slam dunk.” He became intent on securing Libi’s testimony as a witness against them. He advised his F.B.I. colleagues in Afghanistan to question Libi respectfully, “and handle this like it was being done right here, in my office in New York.” He recalled, “I remember talking on a secure line to them. I told them, ‘Do yourself a favor, read the guy his rights. It may be old-fashioned, but this will come out if we don’t. It may take ten years, but it will hurt you, and the bureau’s reputation, if you don’t. Have it stand as a shining example of what we feel is right.’ ”

Cloonan’s F.B.I. colleagues advised Libi of his rights and took turns with C.I.A. agents in questioning him. After a few days, F.B.I. officials felt that they were developing a good rapport with him. The C.I.A. agents, however, felt that he was lying to them, and needed tougher interrogation.

To Cloonan’s dismay, the C.I.A. reportedly rendered Libi to Egypt. He was seen boarding a plane in Afghanistan, restrained by handcuffs and ankle cuffs, his mouth covered by duct tape. Cloonan, who retired from the F.B.I. in 2002, said, “At least we got information in ways that wouldn’t shock the conscience of the court. And no one will have to seek revenge for what I did.” He added, “We need to show the world that we can lead, and not just by military might.”

After Libi was taken to Egypt, the F.B.I. lost track of him. Yet he evidently played a crucial background role in Secretary of State Colin Powell’s momentous address to the United Nations Security Council in February, 2003, which argued the case for a preëmptive war against Iraq. In his speech, Powell did not refer to Libi by name, but he announced to the world that “a senior terrorist operative” who “was responsible for one of Al Qaeda’s training camps in Afghanistan” had told U.S. authorities that Saddam Hussein had offered to train two Al Qaeda operatives in the use of “chemical or biological weapons.”

Last summer, Newsweek reported that Libi, who was eventually transferred from Egypt to Guantánamo Bay, was the source of the incendiary charge cited by Powell, and that he had recanted. By then, the first anniversary of the U.S. invasion of Iraq had passed and the 9/11 Commission had declared that there was no known evidence of a working relationship between Saddam and Al Qaeda. Dan Coleman was disgusted when he heard about Libi’s false confession. “It was ridiculous for interrogators to think Libi would have known anything about Iraq,” he said. “I could have told them that. He ran a training camp. He wouldn’t have had anything to do with Iraq. Administration officials were always pushing us to come up with links, but there weren’t any. The reason they got bad information is that they beat it out of him. You never get good information from someone that way.”

Most authorities on interrogation, in and out of government, agree that torture and lesser forms of physical coercion succeed in producing confessions. The problem is that these confessions aren’t necessarily true. Three of the Guantánamo detainees released by the U.S. to Great Britain last year, for example, had confessed that they had appeared in a blurry video, obtained by American investigators, that documented a group of acolytes meeting with bin Laden in Afghanistan. As reported in the London Observer, British intelligence officials arrived at Guantánamo with evidence that the accused men had been living in England at the time the video was made. The detainees told British authorities that they had been coerced into making false confessions.

[Mailman]

My heart bleeds purple p1ss for Ibn al-Sheikh al-Libi. Perhaps if he stayed at home raising his goats he wouldnt have got an all expenses paid trip to sunny cuba

NEXT

Mailman

[XperTest]

My heart bleeds purple p1ss for Ibn al-Sheikh al-Libi. Perhaps if he stayed at home raising his goats he wouldnt have got an all expenses paid trip to sunny cuba

NEXT

Mailman

If you're happy that hundreds of thousands of mainly innocent people are being killed in the name of a fight against "terrorism" (who's the agressor here I often wonder?) and billions of Western taxpayers money are spent doing this based on false confessions and blatant lies than I think any insightful discussion is beyond the realm of possibility. As far as I am concerned the current politics are a dead end street and we are only sowing more hatred rather than making the world a safer place.

NEXT

[white-anglo-reactionary]

Only a chickenhawk could spout this much cr@p

Discredited? More like the softc0cks in the west dont want to use it cause they want to look nice and namby pamby to the pinko leftie lesbo's who think the world is a box of fluffies!

No wonder you're in agreement with chickenhawk Cheney. FFS, you're a kiwi - your lot haven't exactly been at the forefront of the war on terror, have you? Stick to "Medal of Honour" in future

[Mailman]

If you're happy that hundreds of thousands of mainly innocent people are being killed in the name of a fight against "terrorism" (who's the agressor here I often wonder?) and billions of Western taxpayers money are spent doing this based on false confessions and blatant lies than I think any insightful discussion is beyond the realm of possibility. As far as I am concerned the current politics are a dead end street and we are only sowing more hatred rather than making the world a safer place.

NEXT

If it keeps me safe, Im happy for them muslims to be locked up because they have slanty eyes and are yellow!

Mailman

[snaw]

So you feel safer MM?