Course in Software Engineering

[SpontaneousOrder]

That is not real engineering, it's just you putting on some mascara and looking in the mirror to see if it looks right.

So you're agreeing with me then?

[SpontaneousOrder]

You can laugh at my posts but you are laughing at the man that built Toyota and Sony to world leaders in a 20 years through quality control concepts.

No... i'm not. Because as i said before TDD is NOT about testing. I.e. TDD is not about inspection.

You're making yourself look silly.

[minestrone]

Go on then fellas, for all us non-'real' engineers out there, give us the definition of what a 'real' engineer is. You're both pretty forthright in your comments, so enlighten us !!

Any engineer worth his or her salt can define what that is surely ?

If you are in a barn, either a guy smoking a cigar, a black guy with gold chains, a crazy guy who can fly a helicopter or a suave chap and can knock up a cabbage cannon that can take out 50 folk outside armed with AK47s, you are an engineer my son.

[minestrone]

No... i'm not. Because as i said before TDD is NOT about testing. I.e. TDD is not about inspection.

You're making yourself look silly.

Yes, test driven development is not about testing.

Next you will be telling me you work in the space program. The space bit is unimportant.

[SpontaneousOrder]

Go on then fellas, for all us non-'real' engineers out there, give us the definition of what a 'real' engineer is. You're both pretty forthright in your comments, so enlighten us !!

Any engineer worth his or her salt can define what that is surely ?

I don't think it matters too much. All that matters right now is that software engineers are not real engineers. 'Engineer', though, is probably the best analogy we have right now. But as we've said, we don't have the standards and rigour that true engineering implies, because we don't yet know what those should look like - the industry is too immature. We're still figuring it out.

[minestrone]

It's been a long time since I wrote tests to prove my code works.

But that is what you all do. It's the whole point of it.

"I'm going to write some code and I think this is how it should work so ill write a test to test the way I think it should work and when the test works I'll say it works"

Can you not see the stupidity of the idea?

[zemoxyl]

I don't think it matters too much. All that matters right now is that software engineers are not real engineers. 'Engineer', though, is probably the best analogy we have right now. But as we've said, we don't have the standards and rigour that true engineering implies, because we don't yet know what those should look like - the industry is too immature. We're still figuring it out.

I think it matters immensely. Because for decades, seriously intelligent people from the Ivy League downwards have been comfortable with the definitions given, but you are not !

Yet you still cannot explain why.

[SpontaneousOrder]

I think it matters immensely. Because for decades, seriously intelligent people from the Ivy League downwards have been comfortable with the definitions given, but you are not !

Yet you still cannot explain why.

I can, and I have. Multiple times. See the Sam Newman quote I supplied a few pages back. That's the reason I think it. Like I already said.

intelligent people from the Ivy League downwards have been comfortable with the definitions given

Did you ask them? Or could it be that they are just using the best analogy we currently have?

[SpontaneousOrder]

But that is what you all do. It's the whole point of it.

"I'm going to write some code and I think this is how it should work so ill write a test to test the way I think it should work and when the test works I'll say it works"

Can you not see the stupidity of the idea?

No... that's not how it works at all. That's what people who don't understand TDD do, before they then exclaim to the world that TDD doesn't work.

The fact that you say "thats the whole point of it" tell me right away that you don't have a clue. That's what unit tests that we've been writing for ages are for. TDD doesn't mean "you write unit tests for your code".

[zemoxyl]

If you are in a barn, either a guy smoking a cigar, a black guy with gold chains, a crazy guy who can fly a helicopter or a suave chap and can knock up a cabbage cannon that can take out 50 folk outside armed with AK47s, you are an engineer my son.

Thank f**k you don't live in Germany then. You also forgot the geezer who swaps the dud cartridges in the inkjet printers. Plus the guy who sucks air in deep at FIT-KWAK when you ask if your brake pads need a look at.