is it fair

[VectraMan]

A big problem with PR is that you have party lists, who gets to be MPsis chosen by the party machine, so in pure(ish) PR there is an ordered list.

Though that's more or less true now. And now we have the ridiculous situation where the PM, who most people vote for, also has to be an MP. What would happen if there was a Tory majority but Cameron lost his seat? He couldn't be PM, but most would say they voted for a Tory party with Cameron as leader and ended up with someone else; the election having been decided by the people of Witney.

The argument for FPTP has always been that it means strong governments and keeps the nutters out. If we're getting hung parliaments and the nutters are getting in anyway, then perhaps it's time for a change. But then we're virtually guaranteeing coalitions for ever and a day. That could mean the LibDems permanently in power.

[OwlHoot]

That UKIP could get 14-18% of the votes yet only get 2-3 seats and SNP may poll around 5% and get 50+ seats? ...

Now that kind of fairness I do care about!

[Batcher]

Though that's more or less true now. And now we have the ridiculous situation where the PM, who most people vote for, also has to be an MP. What would happen if there was a Tory majority but Cameron lost his seat? He couldn't be PM, but most would say they voted for a Tory party with Cameron as leader and ended up with someone else; the election having been decided by the people of Witney.

The argument for FPTP has always been that it means strong governments and keeps the nutters out. If we're getting hung parliaments and the nutters are getting in anyway, then perhaps it's time for a change. But then we're virtually guaranteeing coalitions for ever and a day. That could mean the LibDems permanently in power.

The big guns are parachuted into safe seats at the moment so it's just the same. You would hope that the parties would choose the most talented individuals to top their lists in a PR system.

Once the make-up of the parliament is decided it could go to a vote to pick the PM. Obviously the party with the most MPs would get one of their guys in. The voters would feel that their vote counted though as at the moment it's possible for around 70% of a constituency to have voted against the guy who wins.

[Batcher]

Now that kind of fairness I do care about!

Me too !! It's absolutely fair as an SNP vote is worth 5 UKIP votes

[minestrone]

If one agrees with a system of proportional representation, then one can't complain about what the populace votes for.

If, on the other hand, one supports FPTP, one can't then complain about a party they like or don't like getting a disproportionate number of seats.

What do you see as being a 'fairer' system ?

Just thought it was an interesting point, nothing more.

Move along.

[TheFaQQer]

The big guns are parachuted into safe seats at the moment so it's just the same.

Tell that to Nick Clegg

[Dominic Connor]

Cameron as PM

>"what would happen if there was a Tory majority but Cameron lost his seat? He couldn't be PM,"

As you will no doubt recall, Robert Gascoyne-Cecil, 3rd Marquess of Salisbury was a Peer not an MP.

You don't need to be a member of the House of commons to be PM.

Lacking a written constitution we just have the fuzzy idea of a PM as the person who can carry out business. There is no rule they have to be an MP or even the leader of the largest party, a fact that the Nicola Sturgeon and Alex Salmond must surely be aware of...

The reality of course is that if he was Portilloed Cameron's career would be dead, but if the party really really wanted him to stay as PM, they could make him a Peer.

The HoC would be incensed by this and it's obviously extremely unlikely, but a loyal tory in a safe seat might decide/be persuaded to throw himself on his sword and cause a swift by-election, again it would be a tough sell.

I guess perhaps Thatcher at the very pinnacle of her time conceivably might have had a vague chance at this, but Cameron would be gone.

[minestrone]

For what it is worth nationalists I always found Dominic Connor to be a bit soft in the mind.

[darmstadt]

A this point, someone will say "Germany", which is a rich, peaceful country, which is true.

Then one is rather forced to point out that the Weimar Republic that brought the Nazis to power was PR.

Not quite. The Weimar Republic was created after WWI and although they had elections, it was actually the Ermächtigungsgesetz (1) and Reichstagsbrandverordnung (2) of 1933 that gave rise to the Nazis taking power although what really caused these to be passed was Article 48 (Notverordnung und Notverordnungsrecht) of the constitution, but yes PR did have a hand in it: How proportional representation brought Adolf Hitler to power


(1) Gesetz zur Behebung der Not von Volk und Reich - Law to Remedy the Distress of People and Reich

(2) Verordnung des Reichspräsidenten zum Schutz von Volk und Staat - Decree of the Reich President for the Protection of People and State

[darmstadt]

I don't think you could have PR in the UK as I don't think half the voters would be able to work out how to vote. My list runs to 4 sides and I had over 40 votes and that was just the local election, here's an example for a small area of only 15,000 inhabitants for their local election (which has a back page to it as well...)