You reap what you sow

[ChicoLondon]

Re: Is this just evasion

No dundee I call it avoidance.

[dundeegeorge]

Re: Is this just evasion

Well if you are ever told why it is bad, please let me know. I would be interested.

[OwlHoot]

Re: Oh dear

> Ok granted there is some evidence for some charismatic bloke called Jesus existed 2000 years ago.

Reading the gospels between the lines, or just the lines themselves, reveals practically irrefutable evidence of his existence, and even character, to all but the most unsubtle and wilful imbecile!

For a start they record several incidents and sayings which on the face of it don't seem to put him in the best light and some of which puzzled and even offended his followers. But what devoted follower or later fabricator would make up any of these? Examples include his bad relations with his family, the incident with the Canaanite woman, cursing fig trees, etc, etc.

Also, there's abundant proof of his impatience, quick wittedness, and sense of humour, such as calling his disciples by nicknames, e.g. Simon called Peter ("Petros" = "Rocky" in Greek).

Sceptics might argue that all this could have been fabricated to allow just such arguments for his existence to be put forward. But I don't reckon the guys who wrote the gospels were anywhere near subtle enough for that. In any case such deviousness and deceipt would have invited contradiction and controversy not to mention seeming unacceptably sinful to the authors even with the best intentions.

I'd like to expand on some of this, as best I can, sometime; but as my boss is hovering about like a hummingbird, it's TTFN ..

[widgetdance]

Re: Oh dear

So Sherlock Holmes and James Bond must be real then Eh! I mean nobody would write about those two blokes, flawed as they are, if they didnt exist.

The Gospels were written some 400 years after Christ died. Based on an Oral tradition, a tradition which had been honed over the years to illicit the best reaction from an audience.

Much like the Illiad. Do you suppose all that happened too.

[dundeegeorge]

400 years after which christ had died?

I had understood that christ was a title, not a name, and that there had been many christs before the one made famous by Robert Powell, and many afterwards, although of course those others were false christs (ahem)

[OwlHoot]

Re: Oh dear

> So Sherlock Holmes and James Bond must be real then Eh!
> I mean nobody would write about those two blokes, flawed
> as they are, if they didnt exist.

Except for entertainment value and consequent sales, neither of which sounds like a very plausible motive for a devout early Christian writer.

Anyway, if their purpose was to "illicit (elicit) the best reaction" as you claim, and from simple folk, why sprinkle the account with fictitious flaws (taking the sceptic's view that the whole thing was made up)? That's the point I was making.

Same thing happens in the Koran. At one point the Prophet says "They call me the Mad Poet". None of the immams would have dared make that up if they hadn't been copying his words onto palm leaves.

> The Gospels were written some 400 years after Christ died.
> Based on an Oral tradition, a tradition which had been
> honed over the years to illicit the best reaction from an
> audience.

That's not true. Some of the gospel authors had first-hand experience of the events and people they described, and even the earliest gospel manuscripts have been carbon-dated to the early 2nd century.

See www.carm.org/questions/gospels_written.htm

> Much like the Illiad. Do you suppose all that happened too.

According to academic.reed.edu/humanities/110Tech/Iliad.html, the Trojan War happened in c. 1200 BC, and the Illiad was written c. 720BC. So after 500 years of oral history I wouldn't expect detailed accuracy. But it's surprising how many place names and so forth have been verified by archaeologists.

[OwlHoot]

Re: 400 years after which christ had died?

> I had understood that christ was a title, not a name

"christos" is just Greek for "annointed". See www.htmlbible.com/sacrednamebiblecom/kjvstrongs/FRMSTRGRK55.htm (# 5547)

[Lucifer Box]

Re: Oh dear

Since then Jesus even himself has said he is the Way, the Truth and the Life - no one gets to the Father but through him and that is what I believe.

Okay, so that we can avoid counting the number of angels that dance on the head of a pin, let's leave whether you are "good" out of it. Although it is interesting to note that in God's eye no one other than Himself is good - making it again that what you say is at least as important as what you do.

So you are saying that prior to the time of Jesus it was possible for a non-Christian to go to Heaven, but afterwards it was not. I wonder when the switch in selection methodologies occured? On Jesus' birth, on his death, when 10% of the world's population had heard of him, 20%?

[widgetdance]

Re: Oh dear

a very plausible motive for a devout early Christian

As wandering story tellers,no doubt they had a belief, their motive was to spread the word. To enthral an audience perhaps to earn a bed and some food. I am sure the story grew. The tellers probably believed it.

The original gospel orators had first hand experience. Are you sure that what was subsequently written down was the same story they witnessed? Did they embellish the story in some way to make it more acceptable to the audience?
If the 4 synoptic gospels witnessed the same events, why are there so many differences in their stories? Possibly because they only related the bits that were important to them or maybe their stories changed as they told them to increase the stories appeal.

We are sure the Trojan wars happened, but using your logic then the Greek Gods must exist as Homer says they had a hand in the proceedings. At least one character dies twice, from that do we assume he was resurected?

I have had enough of this, I cant be bothered anymore.

[hattra]

Re: Oh dear

it's surprising how many place names and so forth have been verified by archaeologists

Place names you wouldn't expect to change much, after all some of them might well have still existed 500 years after the Trojan war. It's the actions and names of individuals that tend to become confused, blurred, exaggerated, forgotten etc.

However, I agree with Owlhoot - the New Testament was probably mostly written within c. 200, rather than 400 years of Christ's demise, some possibly within only 40 years of his death. Unfortunately there have been nearly 2000 years of "editorial input" since then.

Most rational people have understood that the Bible is a collection of material of different natures, some documentary, some historically accurate, some historically inaccurate, some mystical, some allegorical, some forged and some just plain odd. They also understand that it has been subjected to both intentional and unintentional change over the last 2000 years.

Archaeology does provide evidence that some of the Bible is "historically accurate" - it also provides evidence that some of it is not. One of my problems with Chico and his like is that they will quite happily quote scientific evidence when it supports their views, but will not accept the very same science when it throws up facts that are inconvenient for them - for instance, when it gives ages that pre-date their idea of when the Creation took place.

The curious thing is that there is apparently nothing within the Roman records of the time recording the activities of Christ, and the Romans were quite good record keepers. Personally, I think a person called Jesus (or Joshua or Jeshu) did exist, but I find it odd that there is really only the Bible to provide any confirmation of that fact - you would expect more from a relatively literate period of history.