UKIP is wrong - I just changed my mind on the EU

[OwlHoot]

The increase in the population will mean more houses, Hospitals and Schools will need to be built, are you prepared to pay for and support that?

and that's just today - In a few years it'll be far far worse, when at least half of all jobs disappear so all these immigrants and their offspring won't even have jobs to keep them occupied:

Study: Nearly 50% of jobs at risk of robot takeover - Workopolis

The reason for the mass import of cheap workers is so that big businesses can pay lower wages, not sure why all the pro immigration folks on here want to support that?

That's one reason. But the main reason the last Labour government allowed and actually encouraged millions of immigrants was to import the poverty and dependency on which socialists thrive. It isn't in their interest for everyone to better themselves.

edit: Another link on bots taking over jobs :

2104-03-13 Bill Gates: People Don't Realize How Many Jobs Will Soon Be Replaced By Software Bots

[VectraMan]

So what are you suggesting that we simply leave the floodgates open?

Flood gates by definition are completely open nearly all of the time, and only close on occasions where the flood will be destructive.

I think we probably should have more restrictions on immigration but that shouldn't apply to our reciprocal arrangement with the EU any more than it applies to people moving south from Scotland. After all the British citizens are the number one beneficiaries of the right to go and live and work in EU countries, something that UKIPers like to forget. The other thing UKIPers always do is turn any discussion on immigration into an attack on the EU, when only a third of immigration comes from EU countries, so even if we left the EU at best it'd only cut immigration by a third and it's not those third that cause problems of language and cultural differences (which are valid concerns). And in reality a large number of that third would probably still get in according to the rules that apply to everyone else.

[vetran]

The largest group of foreign born people in the UK are Indian. The number of them is hardly irrelevant. Ask around the Indian people you know and you will find the vast majority have a British passport i.e. are British Citizens.

People from the EU and the US don't get British passports. They also tend to come and go within 5-7 years unless they marry someone there as your Commonwealth citizens tend to stay.

So they have changed citizenship then? Something an immigrant tends to do sometimes.

But if you want to measure immigration you need to find out what their original nationality was. This is why the ONS use place of birth and assume that the few cases of people entitled to be British citizens such as Boris are so rare they make little difference to the trend i.e. irrelevant.

[DodgyAgent]

Flood gates by definition are completely open nearly all of the time, and only close on occasions where the flood will be destructive.

I think we probably should have more restrictions on immigration but that shouldn't apply to our reciprocal arrangement with the EU any more than it applies to people moving south from Scotland. After all the British citizens are the number one beneficiaries of the right to go and live and work in EU countries, something that UKIPers like to forget. The other thing UKIPers always do is turn any discussion on immigration into an attack on the EU, when only a third of immigration comes from EU countries, so even if we left the EU at best it'd only cut immigration by a third and it's not those third that cause problems of language and cultural differences (which are valid concerns). And in reality a large number of that third would probably still get in according to the rules that apply to everyone else.

In other words we should have control over our own borders. Something we do not get by being part of the EU.

[DodgyAgent]

What is interesting in this debate is the unashamed self interest of those who are so pro the EU and the open door immigration policies that come with it. Clearly you guys see the gravy train of being free to sell your skills to the highest bidder across the entire EU market. This market is dominated by British freelancers who can also arrange their tax affairs most favourably by virtue of their mobility. When it is suggested that the EU needs to unlock its high value skilled workers and get Polish, Romanian and Italian IT specialists unlocked from their permie jobs we get a deafening silence.

What cost is it to you when all you have to do is turn a blind eye to the problems caused by lower end immigration and the strain it puts on public services? It is not your jobs these people are competing with is it? You can afford to sneer at the sub £25k workers finding themselves out of work to bright young foreign born graduates. They have no chance of competing with young energetic and motivated 20 somethings.

As for your own healthcare and kids education you can go wherever you want to where the service is best. Whereas the rest have to share their GP and A&E waiting rooms with the population of the world.

[SueEllen]

What is interesting in this debate is the unashamed self interest of those who are so pro the EU and the open door immigration policies that come with it. Clearly you guys see the gravy train of being free to sell your skills to the highest bidder across the entire EU market. This market is dominated by British freelancers who can also arrange their tax affairs most favourably by virtue of their mobility. When it is suggested that the EU needs to unlock its high value skilled workers and get Polish, Romanian and Italian IT specialists unlocked from their permie jobs we get a deafening silence.

We don't go around telling British permies to become contractors so why do you think we should go around telling Polish, Romanian and Italian permies to do the same?

And yes I've worked alongside contractors from other EU countries in the UK.

What cost is it to you when all you have to do is turn a blind eye to the problems caused by lower end immigration and the strain it puts on public services? It is not your jobs these people are competing with is it? You can afford to sneer at the sub £25k workers finding themselves out of work to bright young foreign born graduates. They have no chance of competing with young energetic and motivated 20 somethings.

If they complete they can and will get the work. Unfortunately some of them think they are entitled to get the work with no effort due to their place of birth.

As for your own healthcare and kids education you can go wherever you want to where the service is best. Whereas the rest have to share their GP and A&E waiting rooms with the population of the world.

I've never had long waits in A&E, and if I'm ill I'm prepared to wait for an on the day GP appointment. If I'm not desperately ill but need to see the GP then I know I will have to wait 10 days to get an early morning appointment.

[Flashman]

[QUOTE=VectraMan;2017489]Flood gates by definition are completely open nearly all of the time, and only close on occasions where the flood will be destructive.

I think we probably should have more restrictions on immigration but that shouldn't apply to our reciprocal arrangement with the EU any more than it applies to people moving south from Scotland. After all the British citizens are the number one beneficiaries of the right to go and live and work in EU countries, something that UKIPers like to forget.

We should have reciprocal arrangements with countries where British contractors actually want to work. Switzerland, Australia, Netherlands, Germany amongst others. What we don't want is an open door for 485 million EU citizens from mostly poor countries.

The other thing UKIPers always do is turn any discussion on immigration into an attack on the EU, when only a third of immigration comes from EU countries, so even if we left the EU at best it'd only cut immigration by a third and it's not those third that cause problems of language and cultural differences (which are valid concerns). And in reality a large number of that third would probably still get in according to the rules that apply to everyone else.

Tighten up the rules. Have a similar immigration system as Canada, Australia, New Zealand.

Try not to let murderers from Latvia into the country.

[Flashman]

What is interesting in this debate is the unashamed self interest of those who are so pro the EU and the open door immigration policies that come with it. Clearly you guys see the gravy train of being free to sell your skills to the highest bidder across the entire EU market. This market is dominated by British freelancers who can also arrange their tax affairs most favourably by virtue of their mobility. When it is suggested that the EU needs to unlock its high value skilled workers and get Polish, Romanian and Italian IT specialists unlocked from their permie jobs we get a deafening silence.

Interesting point. Most EU immigrants will take any crummy, part time, low paid temporary, work just to get in the country. Once you have a home (housing benefit is oh so handy here) in this country you are well on the way to becoming a British citizen.

Instead we should break the relationship between work and citizenship. I don't think many people would have a problem with highly paid freelancers coming over here and working for a year and then going home.

Or should that competition only be for poorly paid jobs?

[DodgyAgent]

We don't go around telling British permies to become contractors so why do you think we should go around telling Polish, Romanian and Italian permies to do the same?

And yes I've worked alongside contractors from other EU countries in the UK.


If they complete they can and will get the work. Unfortunately some of them think they are entitled to get the work with no effort due to their place of birth.


I've never had long waits in A&E, and if I'm ill I'm prepared to wait for an on the day GP appointment. If I'm not desperately ill but need to see the GP then I know I will have to wait 10 days to get an early morning appointment.

Good for you

[SueEllen]

Good for you

Not everyone has the same experiences.