The unacceptable face of capitalism

[tractor]

Ah - so it's not a moral requirement? Don't bleat about inequality if you are prepared to play the system to your advantage.

Contractors are definitely in the top 2% of earners, so not the richest - but the money we take home would seem rather a lot to the other 98%.

The system is at fault not its users. I guess you don't make savings at the cash n carry because other people can't afford to buy in bulk as you can?

So the bank which lent the £205M didnt do enough due diligence then. Everybody in this country borrows money. The employees at the bank work on commission basis and push through the most absurd of applications for money. The sub prime lending was sometimes lending 7 times salary. The only party at fault here is the bank which lent the cash.

No, everyone in the country does not borrow money! I don't.

See this is what confuses me.

So you had £200 million and bought phones for you.

The you get a load for £205 million (and so are in debt by £205 million)

Then you take a dividend payment of £223 Million - where the fook has that money come from?

Dividend payment then grossed up. Speak to your accountant to find out how it works

....of course it is! and it works to your advantage. My point was - please don't try and talk about inequality in the UK - when you are in a position that allows you to employ an accountant to minimise your tax and NICs and maximise your take home.
Yes - totally legal, but not really morally defensible.

If a totally legal umbrella offered a better return you would drop your limited company faster than your pants.

Ridiculous argument. If the government introduced a benefit or a concession that you could take advantage of if you wanted, you would do it immediately whether you needed it or not. It's human nature and not immoral. Again, it's the system at fault where it allows moron politicians to manipulate legislation to socially engineer. When they get it wrong (more often than not), people will take advantage.

To the extent that governments globally are shovelling money into their pockets and those of their cronies via asset purchases and the QE required for them, it probably is true.

People are very selective about tax avoidance, however. Pensions and ISAs are ok, for instance. But they're tax avoidance devices ultimately, with strings attached. It's hypocritical for people favouring these to bemoan anyone else trying to reduce their tax bill within the confines of the law.

Exactly.

[BrilloPad]

How do you mean try leaving London for a day - what would that prove?

Just cos the streets of LOndon are paved with QE money does not mean everywhere is. Immigration has pushed down wages for alot of working class. Very interesting comparing LLandudno (where ex-mrsbp2 lives) to LOndon.

To the extent that governments globally are shovelling money into their pockets and those of their cronies via asset purchases and the QE required for them, it probably is true.

People are very selective about tax avoidance, however. Pensions and ISAs are ok, for instance. But they're tax avoidance devices ultimately, with strings attached. It's hypocritical for people favouring these to bemoan anyone else trying to reduce their tax bill within the confines of the law.

I wondeer what OG will say about this? Extremely predictable no doubt....

[original PM]

Just cos the streets of LOndon are paved with QE money does not mean everywhere is. Immigration has pushed down wages for alot of working class. Very interesting comparing LLandudno (where ex-mrsbp2 lives) to LOndon.



I wondeer what OG will say about this? Extremely predictable no doubt....

How do you know the streets of London are paved with QE money?

You are not mistaking people showing off wealth with people who have wealth are you?

[Project Monkey]

What does the average contractor earn? £80K perhaps?
I very much doubt this is in the top 2%

Ditto that. I'd say we're in the top 10%, but not top 2%.

[jemb]

The system is at fault not its users. I guess you don't make savings at the cash n carry because other people can't afford to buy in bulk as you can?


.

I take no high ground on this, although I doubt you purchase your guacamole from Lidl.

Anyway, your point of view is fine, and I sense no moral taking of the high ground from you.

There will be legal means of avoiding tax which you are quite at liberty to take. However governments need tax and NIC receipts in order to govern society (this is one of their many arguments for the use of retrospection in tax affairs) and any form of avoidance will minimise those receipts and impact society in one form or another.

Avoidance is the fault of crap tax laws. Our choice to maximise these means of avoiding tax is totally within our right, however there is little moral case for any form of legal avoidance. So why would we pretend there is?

[jemb]

Ditto that. I'd say we're in the top 10%, but not top 2%.

The link here is probably indicative rather than accurate, however it would suggest that 80K would place you pretty high in the earnings rankings.

60K, before tax, would put you in the top 10% , see here, which would equate to a day rate of about £270. I would imaging that most contractors on this site earn a considerable amount more than this.

[Zero Liability]

The fact that those receipts (NICs) are just part of a general pot that they dip into as and when they like also has an impact on it. If they feel that the taxes are required, they can itemise what we pay for and explain why it is value for money. Oh, and they can stop referring to us as 'customers'. This isn't '1984 '... Not yet.

[tractor]

...

I take no high ground on this, although I doubt you purchase your guacamole from Lidl.

Anyway, your point of view is fine, and I sense no moral taking of the high ground from you.

There will be legal means of avoiding tax which you are quite at liberty to take. However governments need tax and NIC receipts in order to govern society (this is one of their many arguments for the use of retrospection in tax affairs) and any form of avoidance will minimise those receipts and impact society in one form or another.

Avoidance is the fault of crap tax laws. Our choice to maximise these means of avoiding tax is totally within our right, however there is little moral case for any form of legal avoidance. So why would we pretend there is?

You have a remarkable propensity for stating the bleedin' obvious esp after I had already said it 3 times in the thread. The term you are looking for is 'avoidance'; if a tax saving is illegal, it's 'evasion'. I think you misunderstood my point about buying in bulk; the point that I was making is that being cash rich, you can take advantage of preferential terms by buying in bulk whereas the other 98% of whom you speak usually can't. Doesn't stop you taking advantage though? It's not about whether you shop at Lidl or take the leftovers out of the skip at the back of KFC.

The fact that those receipts (NICs) are just part of a general pot that they dip into as and when they like also has an impact on it. If they feel that the taxes are required, they can itemise what we pay for and explain why it is value for money. Oh, and they can stop referring to us as 'customers'. This isn't '1984 '... Not yet.

Especially when since WW2, successive lying governments would have us believe contributions are ring fenced and targeted only at the NHS and pensions. The biggest lie of last and this century. I would have less of a beef about paying any tax if so much was not wasted or shared around money grubbing politicians and their friends.

[SueEllen]

Just cos the streets of LOndon are paved with QE money does not mean everywhere is. Immigration has pushed down wages for alot of working class. Very interesting comparing LLandudno (where ex-mrsbp2 lives) to LOndon.

I suggest you do some volunteering in London whether in a Church group, school in the East End or another organisation and you will see that not everyone in London is living a life of wealth. There are people in London who work as cleaners, hospital porters, gardeners etc and aren't well paid.

[SpontaneousOrder]

Which is all very bulltulip

Fixed it.

We've never had anything like full-on capitalism, so it's a bit premature to be saying it doesn't 'work'.