Interesting article - Substitution

[The Spartan]

I could probably think of a dozen reasons whay it wouldn't be allowed but for the moment it's not something I have to worry about as I'm not due back till the new tax year

[northernladuk]

I am interested in the idea of sub-contracting (not substituting). I don't think a permie would be allowed to pay someone else to do their work. What is the esteemed panel's view on the implications of sub-contracting on employment status? For example, my Ltd pays a subbie to create my MS Project schedule.

I don't see why they shouldn't. Client/Employer doesn't know either way. Permie would never do it though culture and cost that is for sure but don't see what is stopping them. Maybe their employment terms forbade them from doing it I don't know.

What do you mean by implications of sub-contracting on employment status? How it makes you look or the relationship of the subcontractor to you? It is obviously a valid b2b relationship but and am sure using subcontractor to deliver a more complete or complex solution to client would look very business like. Not heard about how it would affect an IR35 review and would be skeptical of it's use as a defense though as I do believe a permie can do it.

Saying that, if a subcontractor adds a element to your delivery that you can't I can't see how you can be a disguised permie as alone you couldn't not fulfil the contract.

Any chance you can start a new thread? Could be interesting this one.

[speling bee]

I don't see why they shouldn't. Client/Employer doesn't know either way. Permie would never do it though culture and cost that is for sure but don't see what is stopping them. Maybe their employment terms forbade them from doing it I don't know.

What do you mean by implications of sub-contracting on employment status? How it makes you look or the relationship of the subcontractor to you? It is obviously a valid b2b relationship but and am sure using subcontractor to deliver a more complete or complex solution to client would look very business like. Not heard about how it would affect an IR35 review and would be skeptical of it's use as a defense though as I do believe a permie can do it.

Saying that, if a subcontractor adds a element to your delivery that you can't I can't see how you can be a disguised permie as alone you couldn't not fulfil the contract.

Any chance you can start a new thread? Could be interesting this one.

Done. Waiting for you to post links showing how this has all been discussed before.

[northernladuk]

Done. Waiting for you to post links showing how this has all been discussed before.

LOL.. You think I have sold you a gotcha?? Nah. Don't think this has been asked with respect to IR35 and I can't make my mind up either way. It has never been mentioned and I can't remember it being mentioned as part of the business questions but surely using subcontractors to deliver a solution is a terrific business model. Am genuinely interested it what people have to say.

[Notascooby]

LOL.. You think I have sold you a gotcha?? Nah. Don't think this has been asked with respect to IR35 and I can't make my mind up either way. It has never been mentioned and I can't remember it being mentioned as part of the business questions but surely using subcontractors to deliver a solution is a terrific business model. Am genuinely interested it what people have to say.

When the Business Tests came out there was a discussion about whether we could do a sub-contractor merry-go-round.

i.e. I'll pay you for a weeks work and I'll pay you for another. As well as hiring office space etc.

My master plan was here http://forums.contractoruk.com/accou...ml#post1541180 which got you about 60 points!

[northernladuk]

When the Business Tests came out there was a discussion about whether we could do a sub-contractor merry-go-round.

i.e. I'll pay you for a weeks work and I'll pay you for another. As well as hiring office space etc.

My master plan was here http://forums.contractoruk.com/accou...ml#post1541180 which got you about 60 points!

But that is deliberately trying to gain points without their being any business justification which would fall over that the very first investigation.

[Notascooby]

But its not far off what we're eventually going to get to...

Dear NLUK - I can't really ask my end client to accept a substitute because as I have the right of substitution in my contract with the agency, there's nothing that backs this up between the agent and end-client. So we all know its there but a bit of a sham.

Therefore how about you bill me for a piece of work, say at (my current rate - 100) that way I can show I've not only sub-contracted work out (not full substitution) but delivered quicker and with lower cost as I was also billing the end client at (current rate) thus making 100 pre day (I'm aware this really only works on a fixed price rather than T&M, unless you can show you were billing elsewhere or on holiday - you could sync the invoice dates of your sub work when not billing the client to look better).

Maybe you can get your mate to sub to me for the same rate for the same duration and I can get a friend to sub to you, then he can have your friend as a sub and we have a 4 way net even arrangement but with monies changing hands and invoices paid.

Or as spelling bee would say - "You could just go through Breeze - its zero risk!"

[speling bee]

But its not far off what we're eventually going to get to...

Dear NLUK - I can't really ask my end client to accept a substitute because as I have the right of substitution in my contract with the agency, there's nothing that backs this up between the agent and end-client. So we all know its there but a bit of a sham.

Therefore how about you bill me for a piece of work, say at (my current rate - 100) that way I can show I've not only sub-contracted work out (not full substitution) but delivered quicker and with lower cost as I was also billing the end client at (current rate) thus making 100 pre day (I'm aware this really only works on a fixed price rather than T&M, unless you can show you were billing elsewhere or on holiday - you could sync the invoice dates of your sub work when not billing the client to look better).

Maybe you can get your mate to sub to me for the same rate for the same duration and I can get a friend to sub to you, then he can have your friend as a sub and we have a 4 way net even arrangement but with monies changing hands and invoices paid.

Or as spelling bee would say - "You could just go through Breeze - its zero risk!"

I would in fact say, "You could just go through Breeze - it's zero risk!"

And it's 'speling bee' not 'spelling bee'.

I am not looking to do a sham. I turn down small pieces of (T&M) work all the time, because I do not have the capacity. But, I could take on more if I subbed pieces of it out.

[Notascooby]

I would in fact say, "You could just go through Breeze - it's zero risk!"

And it's 'speling bee' not 'spelling bee'.

I am not looking to do a sham. I turn down small pieces of (T&M) work all the time, because I do not have the capacity. But, I could take on more if I subbed pieces of it out.

Sorry

If it's off-site and fixed price then why the hell don't you. If it is a case they want you on site then unless you set yourself up as a consultancy it is unlikely.

[Lewis]

Hearsay, but I have a colleague who was IR35 investigated. During his contract, he was asked to do something that he wasn't particularly knowledgeable about and so he decided to sub-contract the work to another company that were better placed to do the work than him. It was, he says, very favorable to his case (which he won).