Disguised employees v contractors

[kingcook]

Hmmm, not sure I could play that card here

I have not ever transfered to another project but neither have any of the permies in my team. I do not know about other team's permies as I have never asked.

However, only one contractor I have ever met has been someone who I thought was truely a contractor and not a disguised permie so I am guessing that my criteria is skewed and I am being too harsh.

Is a specific project listed on your contract? If not, get it included at any renewal?

[MyUserName]

Is a specific project listed on your contract? If not, get it included at any renewal?

Yes, I am contracted to work on 'the project' although it is not refered to by name it is clear that it is only that project I am working on.

QDOS reviewed the contract and made a few corrections to it so I am guessing the paperwork is okay. I merely worry that I am not different enough to the permie staff in the day to day workings.

[Ignis Fatuus]

How many contractors are actually not disguised employees?

I am a non-disguised employee of my own company.

Let me clarify by example:

(1) Joe Bloggs. Employed by ClientCo Ltd. Sits in their office and develops software for ClientCo Ltd.
He's an employee of ClientCo Ltd.

(2) John Smith. Employed by IBM. Sits in ClientCo Ltd's office and develops software for Client Co Ltd.
He's an employee of IBM. He's not an employee, disguised or otherwise, of ClientCo Ltd.

(3) Ignis Fatuus. Employed by MyCo Ltd. Sits in ClientCo Ltd's office beside his mate John Smith of IBM, and like John, develops software for Client Co Ltd.
Is he a disguised employee of ClientCo Ltd, where John Smith of IBM is not?

[stek]

I have always kind of semi agreed with this - maybe not emps but certainly temp emps.....

The Conservative Gov of '78 forced this (Agencies Act - need to check this!), otherwise we would be happily self-employed nomads, bit here, bit there, no Ltd to piss about with.

Certainly not a proper business with significant risk, dividends are 'a reward for risk' what's risky about a six monther at £600 a day? OK there's a bit but it's not the same as designing and building and marketing and selling, say, a new design of clothes peg or a new kind of bra a man can unload without having to use his beer glass hand....

Be honest, over all of our contracting lives, have our divs satisfied the 'reward for risk' criteria? I acknowledge there is some risk as we are, but like 'a proper business'.

[MyUserName]

Ah, good point. The example is helpful. So sitting in the same team as permies and working under the same day to day conditions does not automatically bring you into IR35.

Although I think it would be a hard case to argue against an aggressive HMRC inspector. I am not sure I see enough of a difference in working conditions to justify it

Realistically I am not at much more risk than a permie who has less than 1 year of service.

[kingcook]

(2) John Smith. Employed by IBM. Sits in ClientCo Ltd's office and develops software for Client Co Ltd.
He's an employee of IBM. He's not an employee, disguised or otherwise, of ClientCo Ltd.

John Smith is receiving a normal wage like an employee, not dividends. He is not avoiding paying NI.

The directors of IBM are not providing a personal service themselves, they are sending in their employees (substitutes?).

[jamesbrown]

Ah, good point. The example is helpful. So sitting in the same team as permies and working under the same day to day conditions does not automatically bring you into IR35.

Although I think it would be a hard case to argue against an aggressive HMRC inspector. I am not sure I see enough of a difference in working conditions to justify it

Realistically I am not at much more risk than a permie who has less than 1 year of service.

Well, you're doing a good job of talking yourself into it It's tough to give proper advice without knowing all the facts and, while perhaps less interesting than idle speculation on the internet, you should get a professional review of your contract and working practices by QDOS or similar. They have a template to fill out for working practices, but you can provide as detailed a description as you want. The IBM example above is a poor one IMO because there's no question of a favorable tax position being sought by the IBM employee.

[Ignis Fatuus]

The IBM example above is a poor one IMO because there's no question of a favorable tax position being sought by the IBM employee.

That is true, in that IR35 cases are usually about tax, whereas I was arguing about the rationale of being a "disguised employee" or not.

[MyUserName]

...you should get a professional review of your contract and working practices by QDOS or similar...

Yeah I have had the relevant reviews from QDOS and am covered by their insurance, I have also joined PCG and have various insurances through them.

I know I should not really worry I guess but with this witch hunt starting, it was playing on my inexperienced mind!

[SueEllen]

I know I should not really worry I guess but with this witch hunt starting, it was playing on my inexperienced mind!

If they investigate the fact that you have been in the contract means they will hammer you for the contract.

It doesn't matter how long the contract lasted.

BTW can you refuse to do a task?