Contracted Hours issue - Advice please

[tractor]

..

OP - Are you saying your contract with the agency states 37.5? If so, then I'd be speaking to the agent and tell them to sort it out with the client.

If it then turns out the client wants this professional working day then negotiate accordingly knowing full well they WILL take the piss. But until then bollacks to them.

Although to be fair this professional working day thing is all crap anyway. Some clients try to take the piss still. It does not mean working as long as the client wants.

IMHO, it means an average of 8 hours a day max. With me, if its busy I will work the odd few hours extra - occasionally I've even worked a 20 hour day. But if I want to leave early a few days or take 1/2 day then no-one had better moan about it or that'll be the end of it. Also, working weekends - not for free fellas - if you want work I get to bill for it. Although its amazing how something becomes less urgent when you tell them you;re going to bill a day at the weekend then (as opposed to thenm thinking it was a freebie).

With your client, if it was me, I'd call their bluff. Chances are they're trying to bully you into working your nuts off for free. Of course, got to face up to the fact that they might not be bluffing but then you got to decide whether you want to work your nuts off and have no life or find another contact. Only you can decide this.

+1

[Dark Black]

+2

Well said

[BrilloPad]

Of course if they get rid of you it will just make the project worse - so I reckon you have good bargaining chips.

[SueEllen]

Even the term 'professional day' makes me laugh sometimes. Where is that defined. Whose definition is appropriate. Consultant surgeons have a professional day of around 4 hours. That suits me nicely lol.

I can inform you they don't.

It completely depends on what speciality they are in and where they work. Some spend more than 24 hours completing a complex operation.

This is why there are very few female surgeons even though the training has been improved so it's has more "friendly" hours.

Anyway back on topic what - psychocandy and Brillopad said.

If you haven't got the guts to learn to say no to people it's always worth having activities outside working (Brillopad's are extreme) where you have to also meet deadlines.

Then inform the team you are working with what you do.

That way if the client manager or anyone tries to have a "quiet" word with you about not "pulling your weight" you can tell everyone "loudly" why you are unable to do the extra hours for free. (It also makes it easier to get sponsorship money out of people, though expect them to check you actually completed it. )

If the client manager isn't happy with it then ignore him/her making comments. They can replace you and get another willing subject.

[psychocandy]

Its is a thin line sometimes between being a PITA for no reason and thus not getting renewals. After all, no-one wants a whinging contractor whos out of the door when the clock strikes 5 and wont be flexible at all.

Then again, I've found clients WILL take the piss most of the time. And amount of piss taking depends on how much you let them get away with - never a truer word spoken than give an inch take a mile.....

However, MOST will be reasonable and let it work both ways. Just don't be afraid to tell the client what you will do. Most will agree as long as you aint taking the piss.

For instance, current client asked me to support some work at 8pm the other night (which was going to take about 4 hours) so I said OK no problem, will be working at home from 4pm that day and depending on finishing time I might not be in at 9am next day. No problems. Did have a few calls on my mobile but just ignored them.

Of course, the dullard permies who were also involved were in at 9am, stayed in office till midnight and were still there at 9am next day (I stolled in at 10am). But leave the arselicking to them.

If client has moaned about this, then, of course, would have been last time I was flexible with them. Next time they asked I would have been unavailable at 8pm due to childcare issues. Up to them.

[Roguemeister]

Thanks for all the advice guys, I'll respond briefly to a couple of questions and comments as I don't want to write a long essay!

My contract says 37.5 hrs with the agency and I have spoken to them and they are investigating. It also states that any extra needs to be agreed so that the relevant payment can be made, no agreement, no extra payment...

As I said I am willing to put some hours if it's an emergency. this is probably a 2 or 3 month block of extended hours which is almost to the end of my contract. The threat of the termination of contract is the thing that made me most angry.

There is also no real understanding of the work remaining/effort so they don't actually know whether any extra time is required.

They are refusing any negotiation of extra payment for any extra time worked. They wont entertain the thought of it. That was the card I played in the meeting. (I was very calm and nice about it too!)

I guess I need to see myself as a commodity, if you rent something and require it for longer than an agreed time you pay more (sometimes there's a little slack if you return it a little late, but there's always a cut off point at which the charge applies - also maybe a bad metaphor)

In terms of deliverable and D&C, as a project coordinator it is a little wooly as it's all about 'supporting the project' as opposed to a product deliverable unless anyone has any other experience on how you can pin it down in a contract? But the fact that the role is now not what they described it at all is another point of concern. Is that in itself enough for me to leave to avoid IR35?

I'm searching for another role (project management which is where my experience really is, the market was just dead when I took redundancy)and I've yet to decide whether I force the hours card and see how long it takes for them to remove me.

If I do I might start a wager if anyone wants to have a guess?

If anyone has any more advice, please keep it coming

[Contreras]

Your contract is with the agency so that's where you need to negotiate.

If the agent believes you will walk then they may take a squeeze on their margin that would keep both you and the client happy. I doubt it would compensate for 40 hours into 37.5 though, that's like 6-7% but you can try.

[psychocandy]

Thanks for all the advice guys, I'll respond briefly to a couple of questions and comments as I don't want to write a long essay!

My contract says 37.5 hrs with the agency and I have spoken to them and they are investigating. It also states that any extra needs to be agreed so that the relevant payment can be made, no agreement, no extra payment...

As I said I am willing to put some hours if it's an emergency. this is probably a 2 or 3 month block of extended hours which is almost to the end of my contract. The threat of the termination of contract is the thing that made me most angry.

There is also no real understanding of the work remaining/effort so they don't actually know whether any extra time is required.

They are refusing any negotiation of extra payment for any extra time worked. They wont entertain the thought of it. That was the card I played in the meeting. (I was very calm and nice about it too!)

I guess I need to see myself as a commodity, if you rent something and require it for longer than an agreed time you pay more (sometimes there's a little slack if you return it a little late, but there's always a cut off point at which the charge applies - also maybe a bad metaphor)

In terms of deliverable and D&C, as a project coordinator it is a little wooly as it's all about 'supporting the project' as opposed to a product deliverable unless anyone has any other experience on how you can pin it down in a contract? But the fact that the role is now not what they described it at all is another point of concern. Is that in itself enough for me to leave to avoid IR35?

I'm searching for another role (project management which is where my experience really is, the market was just dead when I took redundancy)and I've yet to decide whether I force the hours card and see how long it takes for them to remove me.

If I do I might start a wager if anyone wants to have a guess?

If anyone has any more advice, please keep it coming

Sorted then. If contract says 37/5 hours then its the agencies problem to sort out not yours.

Yes, a few extra hours for free ain't going to hurt in the long run for the sake of good will but to expect it consistently like this is taking the piss.

Think about - you get a plumber in to fit a shower for you, agree a price, then tell him either he fits a new sink as well for free he's getting the boot. What do you think will happen?

Similarly, when he's there, he might just fix the dripping tap for you for no extra charge without you even asking (and you'll be impressed he did it for free) or even if you ask him nicely.

Yeh, I know its tough cos you dont want to get the boot from the contract. Like I said, need to balance it all out though - is it still worth your while to do the extra hours for same pay? Also, OK you need to draw a line somewhere as well otherwise chances are they'll constantly take the piss, but principles and pride dont pay the bills.

Its you call I think dependent on how much you like the contract, how good the rate is, how close to home etc. If its crap and you think you can get something else easily then stick to your guns. If its brill apart from this, then suck it up, but draw the line somewhere.

[psychocandy]

Just don't quit whatever you do. If it looks like they might follow through and remove you then milk it for all you can until they do so officially. Make it difficult for them.

What they 'may' do is tell you you've got a week left, and to spend a week handing over to someone else (depends how much is to be handed over). If it was me, depending on how much I needed that weeks money, I'd invoke my MOO clause and decline to come in for that week. They wont expect that and it'll wind them up a treat.

[darrenb]

I am in my 1st contract and a situation has occurred that I need your advice on.

I'm currently contracted for 37.5 hours per week. Do to issues, the project I am on is behind and on a tight schedule. He pulled the team in to advise that we should be working a "professional day" as opposed to 9 - 5. In other words working as long as it takes to get the job done.

So they are paying for 37.5 hours but want 50 hours because they're on a tight schedule. Actually if they're on a tight schedule they would probably still prefer to 37.5 hours to 0 hours. Think about it from their perspective!

You're on a 1st contract. 1st contracts are often rough because people think they can take advantage of you. But your 2nd contract is usually better paid. This might be a good opportunity for you in fact to find a new gig based on the client's willingness to violate terms. This is what it means to be a contractor, rather than trying to cling onto a position at all costs, like an employee does.

Alternately, work for 50 hours and bill them for it. Or, if you really plan to spend your career working for free, I hear Workfare is awesome.