Contracted Hours issue - Advice please

[tractor]

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One tactic I have used before to get was:

I would love to do that but it is not in my contract, I cannot do duties/hours/lap dances out of my contract without voiding my IR35 insurance.

I would love to help, honestly I would, but voiding my insurance like that would also cause me to break the law by acting against the interest of my company.

However, I am sure we can churn out a relevant contract change within a day or two if we put our minds to it. I bet the T&C would take 5 minutes, do you have time now?

Precisely WMS!

Always turn their offer of extra hours into a positive for you. In addition, if you have PI insurance, you are likely invalidating that too and if you do have it, it will be because they have demanded it. So tell them you are happy to put in the effort provided that it's crystallised into a new contract that suits all parties then leave the ball firmly in their court. They will either take you up on it or not.

Either way, put out some feelers into the market and see what it's like. At best you will get another offer, at worst you may have some bench time. Whatever you do though remember, if you dither and cave in, it will the the slippery slope. If you are able to accept that it is fine also. As it's your first contract, you may also want to put down the loss as both part of being in business AND the cost of education. Welcome to contracting

[BolshieBastard]

How about ditching the permie mindset about hours? You're a contractor now so guff about 'Im contracted to work 37.5 hours' means diddle squat, despite what your contract says. In any event, a decent contract wont specify an exact number of hours you work so you're already on your way to an iR35 fail.

Far too many newbies want a slice of the contracting action, the vastly higher money and perhaps kudos but then squeal like little pigs when extra hours get raised. Then, they want 'overtime' money (WTF!?) for working extra hours.

I regularly work an extra 3 or 4 hours a week when I have a particular deadline but, I also time manage my time so Im not sat around doing bugger all.

Rule number one as a contractor is, you get paid to produce \ deliver. So deliver!

[jmo21]

How about ditching the permie mindset about hours? You're a contractor now so guff about 'Im contracted to work 37.5 hours' means diddle squat, despite what your contract says. In any event, a decent contract wont specify an exact number of hours you work so you're already on your way to an iR35 fail.

Far too many newbies want a slice of the contracting action, the vastly higher money and perhaps kudos but then squeal like little pigs when extra hours get raised. Then, they want 'overtime' money (WTF!?) for working extra hours.

I regularly work an extra 3 or 4 hours a week when I have a particular deadline but, I also time manage my time so Im not sat around doing bugger all.

Rule number one as a contractor is, you get paid to produce \ deliver. So deliver!

For what it's worth, most places I have worked either as a permie, or as a contractor do NOT pay the permies overtime hours.

[tractor]

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How about ditching the permie mindset about hours? You're a contractor now so guff about 'Im contracted to work 37.5 hours' means diddle squat, despite what your contract says. In any event, a decent contract wont specify an exact number of hours you work so you're already on your way to an iR35 fail.

Far too many newbies want a slice of the contracting action, the vastly higher money and perhaps kudos but then squeal like little pigs when extra hours get raised. Then, they want 'overtime' money (WTF!?) for working extra hours.

I regularly work an extra 3 or 4 hours a week when I have a particular deadline but, I also time manage my time so Im not sat around doing bugger all.

Rule number one as a contractor is, you get paid to produce \ deliver. So deliver!

A decent contract would specify deliverables and a timeline including deadlines. If the actual working practice was as you suggest i.e. do what you are told, work the hours you are told, would that not strongly indicate direction and control?

Extra hours are fine in a 'give and take' scenario. That really does foster a good business relationship with both parties benefitting. However, what the OP is describing is far from that, if the description is accurate. I wouldn't put up with them demanding unspecified and no limit to time outside of what the contract provides for.

[MyUserName]

Mine does, it specified 7.5 hours a day, 5 days a week for X days.

I quite like it tbh, I get a lot of flexibility out of it and they get 7.5 hours a day out of me.

[BolshieBastard]

A decent contract would specify deliverables and a timeline including deadlines. If the actual working practice was as you suggest i.e. do what you are told, work the hours you are told, would that not strongly indicate direction and control?

Extra hours are fine in a 'give and take' scenario. That really does foster a good business relationship with both parties benefitting. However, what the OP is describing is far from that, if the description is accurate. I wouldn't put up with them demanding unspecified and no limit to time outside of what the contract provides for.

Clearly you've never had a contract properly reviewed if that's what you believe. All my contracts (since IR35 came into force) have been delivery focused. B&C have ensured the contracts are so and that D&C as you suggest isnt a factor either. (Like yeah, b&C would weaken my IR35 position over D&C, LOL!)

[farout117]

Clearly you've never had a contract properly reviewed if that's what you believe. All my contracts (since IR35 came into force) have been delivery focused. B&C have ensured the contracts are so and that D&C as you suggest isnt a factor either. (Like yeah, b&C would weaken my IR35 position over D&C, LOL!)

Bolshie, so you would be happy working 10 hours a day for 6 months, given that you thought the daily rate would be a fixed amount for a professional day? I am not saying not to put some extra hours when there is a deadline, again if it was not someone else tulip work, but for me a professional day constitutes 7.5hours/8hours max, and if I think that that would not be enough for the work expected, I would not sign in the first place.

Then again, there were place where I put "some" extra hours per week, because the environment was enjoyable and the project was heading to success. Depends on the situation and what kind of work it is, if its a tulip project, it comes hard to work extra just to still seeing going down.

[tractor]

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Clearly you've never had a contract properly reviewed if that's what you believe. All my contracts (since IR35 came into force) have been delivery focused. B&C have ensured the contracts are so and that D&C as you suggest isnt a factor either. (Like yeah, b&C would weaken my IR35 position over D&C, LOL!)

That's all fine and good, care to provide a link to the relevant case law?

[tractor]

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Bolshie, so you would be happy working 10 hours a day for 6 months, given that you thought the daily rate would be a fixed amount for a professional day? I am not saying not to put some extra hours when there is a deadline, again if it was not someone else tulip work, but for me a professional day constitutes 7.5hours/8hours max, and if I think that that would not be enough for the work expected, I would not sign in the first place.

Then again, there were place where I put "some" extra hours per week, because the environment was enjoyable and the project was heading to success. Depends on the situation and what kind of work it is, if its a tulip project, it comes hard to work extra just to still seeing going down.

Even the term 'professional day' makes me laugh sometimes. Where is that defined. Whose definition is appropriate. Consultant surgeons have a professional day of around 4 hours. That suits me nicely lol.

[psychocandy]

OP - Are you saying your contract with the agency states 37.5? If so, then I'd be speaking to the agent and tell them to sort it out with the client.

If it then turns out the client wants this professional working day then negotiate accordingly knowing full well they WILL take the piss. But until then bollacks to them.

Although to be fair this professional working day thing is all crap anyway. Some clients try to take the piss still. It does not mean working as long as the client wants.

IMHO, it means an average of 8 hours a day max. With me, if its busy I will work the odd few hours extra - occasionally I've even worked a 20 hour day. But if I want to leave early a few days or take 1/2 day then no-one had better moan about it or that'll be the end of it. Also, working weekends - not for free fellas - if you want work I get to bill for it. Although its amazing how something becomes less urgent when you tell them you;re going to bill a day at the weekend then (as opposed to thenm thinking it was a freebie).

With your client, if it was me, I'd call their bluff. Chances are they're trying to bully you into working your nuts off for free. Of course, got to face up to the fact that they might not be bluffing but then you got to decide whether you want to work your nuts off and have no life or find another contact. Only you can decide this.