Dealing with Day Rate disclosure requests.

[The Agents View]

I'm not going to agent bash here, but you are wrong about whether it is relevant to me.

It is very relevant.

For example:
Contractor A, being paid £400/day, through Agency A, charging £1000/day
Contractor B, receiving £300/day, through Agency B, charging £1200/day

So Contractor B is costing the client more, but receiving less.

So, yes, we want to know what your margins are, and yes, I understand contractually, I have no legal reason to be told, but it IS relevant.

Is it your right to get as much money as you can? Yep, absolutely.

But we still hate the fact that you are there as the middleman, with the ability to extract more money than necessary out of both us contractors and the end client.

You are in a strong position, there is no doubt about that.

I see your point, but, your example is too extreme to represent your point. Most of the time, we're talking £10 per day here or there on top of what is considered a "reasonable" margin. At those levels, they're not significant enough to affect any kind of rational decision.

The fact is, that agencies a bit like supermarkets. These days, you don't go to a vegetable farm, before heading to an abattoir, before heading to a drugs company, before heading to a local paper printer, before heading to a tobacco producer, before heading to see Diageo for a drink..... Agencies are effectively contractor supermarkets to the end client. In exactly the same way, we take the raw suppliers, and provide them in a "one stop shop" to the end client. If you wanted to save a few quid, you could go direct to the source - but for the sake of a margin/markup, it's not worth it for the time saved. I don't see any of you asking Tesco what margin they charge on tope of the cost price to them - yet, you still feel the need to challenge the people who are effectively making you a living.

I love the fact that many of you see agents as a "middle man" - when in reality, very few of you would be able to provide even the most BASIC agency service.

[oscarose]

Well that saves me or anyone else having to listen to your warped views of how you think agents aren't entitled to a living, despite doing one of the most important parts of running your pseudo "business".

WHS+2

[nomadd]

And there was me wondering why I had you on my ignore list for all these years.

So, back on it you go, Mr Troll.

Bye.

WHS+3

[Gentile]

This thread reminds me of why I don't post in here much. Whilst the heated and disrespectful exchanges that regularly seem to erupt and be tolerated herein can certainly be entertaining to watch owing to their level of schadenfreude, and the underlying content can be enlightening as to the different points of view and perspectives that exist in the contracting game, to an outside observer they don't give off a friendly vibe or give you much impetus to join in.


Anyway, that said, in answer to the actual question posted by the thread starter, how should you deal with rate disclosure requests, depends entirely on what your objective is. If you're trying to get a gig and make sure everybody wins out of the deal, your approach will be entirely different to if you're merely trying to attain the pleasantly-cross mental state of self-righteous indignation that comes from putting 'some fool' of an agent that's just out of Uni and new to all this contracting lark in their place.

If it's the latter effect you're going for, simply passively-aggressively say something like "how many other contractors are you dealing with?", and when they inevitably tell you anything other than "zero", you say "and what are their day rates?". When the inexperienced agent doesn't answer, or tells you they can't reveal that as it's confidential, that's when you launch satisfyingly into your tirade of choice about how for the same reason you can't possibly reveal how much you charge other clients, etc, etc. You wont won't get the gig, but that feeling of righteous indignation: boy, it's a zinger.

If on the other hand you actually want to make some money, whilst still retaining a good relationship with the agent and the end client, you simply say: "I'm sorry, I never reveal how much I charge other people, but the rate I charge on each occasion is based on a number of factors, such as location and duration; shorter contracts and ones with more travel attract a higher rate. I have a price guide that I can send you that shows you the sliding scale?". Make sure you have such a pre-prepared price list available, showing a breakdown of your rates for various cities and durations, and send it to the agent by e-mail whilst you're on the phone so you can base your discussion around that instead. Be prepared to negotiate if it's a quiet market, or if there's some other tangible benefit to your experience or skills from accepting a given contract at a lower rate.

The latter of the above approaches works because it gets the same result (protecting your bargaining position), without turning a potential point of disagreement into a confrontation or a crusade to prove you're right to a pimply youth that will forget your name ten seconds after they hang up the phone.


FWIW, years ago I read an interview with Warren Buffett, the prolifically-successful stockbroker that's been the world's richest man on a number of occasions. He had all sorts of sage advice for dealing with people that made plain good business sense. One of the things he noted was that the most important lessons he ever learned weren't technical in nature, but simply about how to deal with people. He said, in all seriousness, that going on one of Dale Carnegie's "How to win friends and influence people" courses early in his career had been way more key to his subsequently being successful than simply being right or being competent ever had. A lot of the lessons taught on that course are still applicable today: you've got to know how to get what you want, without making the other fellah feel stupid or defeated. It's really easy to be right, but to nonetheless be unable to influence others because you antagonise other parties. It's only when you're able to negotiate the outcome you want whilst making the other guy feel like they got what they were looking for too, that'll you'll be able to prosper in this game.

[Bunk]

lots of stuff that I think I agree with

I'm always surprised how many people go for aggressive confrontations as a first resort. I usually manage to give nothing away while still ensuring that they at least might call me again if they actually have a gig I'm suitable for.

[Gentile]

I'm always surprised how many people go for aggressive confrontations as a first resort. I usually manage to give nothing away while still ensuring that they at least might call me again if they actually have a gig I'm suitable for.

I'm quite sure that many people temper the attitude they show in here significantly when they're dealing with people in RL, or think that they do. However, it's amazing how often the views and attitudes you express in a relaxed and considered context like an internet forum, can bleed over into the way you later instinctively deal with people in the spur of the moment. When the heat is on and there's no time to think, people fall back on the opinions they formed earlier about how to deal with those situations.

Certainly, you need to know where to draw the line and prevent people from taking the piss; that's an important life skill too. Whenever you hear the words "I just need two referees before I can send your CV", or "where else have you been interviewing?", you need to know how to let the other fellah know they're pushing it and end the call if they don't take the hint. But for other situations that fall into a greyer area of 'how do I turn this to our mutual advantage' such as rate negotiation, it's important not to let your ego into the driving seat, and to take a more considered approach. Practice that considered approach in here, and it'll become second nature when you have to do it under pressure in RL.

[IR35FanClub]

What is your day rate?
See - I asked but you don't have to tell me.

Same as poeople who stop you in the street to ask for charity money. It's their job to ask, but it's isn't in your interest to pay them. Unless you want to divert some income to a good cause and avoid paying tax on it. If they hadn't asked and you weren't feeling over taxed they'd have no money and the governement would.

Same as pricing...

Seller: This car is £13,500?
Buyer: Will you accept £12?
Seller: Nope
Buyer: Ok, bye.
4 weeks later...
Buyer: That car still for sale?
Seller: Yep.
Buyer: I Still got the £12k.
Seller: Come and take a look.
4 hours later....
Buyer: Well it drives well, and the colour is right, but I can see the tyres are almost gone, and there's a noise in the engine. I'll give you £11k.

Agencies are trying to build up a profile of rates, and also see what margine they can get out of you personally. Just tell them you did once do a gig for £1000 a day, but normally its £1,200. ;-)