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Newbie advice please

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    Newbie advice please

    Hi,

    My first post and I'm a newbie to the world of contracting, although I think I've got a reasonable grasp of the basics..

    A bit of background - I was permie until about a year ago, made redundant and - to cut a long story short - have been looking for contracting roles ever since. I've set up an account with an umbrella firm, have been job hunting through agencies, consultancies and a bit of "direct to the firm". I recently applied for a permanent post directly to a firm, and off the back of an interview with said firm have been offered a contract role to start ASAP. But there's a few things I'm not 100% on.

    1: As I understand it, the "client" pays their recruitment agency to do all the admin, I fill in timesheets with my umbrella company who invioices the agency. The agency will be taking a cut of the daily rate, and I pay my umbrella their fee.

    The rate I've been quoted so far by the company is very low for what the role is - less than half what some comparable roles are paying. In the interests of getting a foot-in-the-door etc, I'm willing to take a lower initial rate in the hope of increasing later, but this is - to be honest - ridiculous. So far I've only been dealing with the recruiting managers and it's obvious they are not in a position to budge or seem to know much about the specifics of the process. They're all ex-colleagues, I'm on good terms with them all, and the role is otherwise a very good start.. so I've no argument with them.

    2: As I understand things, I am now waiting on the recruiters from the "client" to pass me onto their agency who will get in touch to start the ball rolling. I am wondering whether this is a good time to try up-the-rate. Plead ignorance or go for the kill? I think this agency is part of the same group that recently offered me a contract at £200 a day that I know for a fact was paying nearer £300 - if this is the case, then I don't think they have too many scruples! I am happy to be "flexible" given some very good things with this contract, but don't want to be taken advantage of either.

    3: The position being filled is for 1-2 years, but I have been dealing with 3/6 months contract offers upto now. As I understand it, you would accept an initial 3month term, and then either extend by a fixed term or go on rolling notice? To me, a years contract is exactly that, but someone mentioned "a 12month contract with an exit clause after 3 months". Well that's a 3month contract, surely? Indeed, if the rate doesn't increase then I'm reluctant to commit myself beyond 3months.

    The other small thing, I noticed on another thread on here, that some of the agencies run through "Contractor Portal" for their timesheets and such - but I would expect to fill that in via my umbrella company. Indeed, from what I've heard of Contractor Portal, the less I have to do with them, the better.

    Any advice is gratefully appreciated!

    #2
    Welcome and do you like Gladiators?

    On the first point it is sensible to take a lower rate to get on the ladder, it will be difficult to negotiate a better rate as a first timer, but if you don't ask you will never know, just be prepared to walk away or look a fool if you call their bluff.

    Shorter contrats are the norm, but the contract will have a clause saying that the client get dump you at any time, normally with a weeks notice so don't worry about the 1-2 years.

    As for the specifics of working through a brolly I can't help you with that but congrats on getting your first contract.
    Originally posted by Stevie Wonder Boy
    I can't see any way to do it can you please advise?

    I want my account deleted and all of my information removed, I want to invoke my right to be forgotten.

    Comment


      #3
      Originally posted by Bristolian View Post
      3: The position being filled is for 1-2 years, but I have been dealing with 3/6 months contract offers upto now. As I understand it, you would accept an initial 3month term, and then either extend by a fixed term or go on rolling notice? To me, a years contract is exactly that, but someone mentioned "a 12month contract with an exit clause after 3 months". Well that's a 3month contract, surely? Indeed, if the rate doesn't increase then I'm reluctant to commit myself beyond 3months.
      This is the bit you really do not understand, and I suggest you fix that or you're going to be bitterly disappointed.

      There is in most cases no "initial term".

      You are offered a contract for x months/years. It will usually have an notice period, and in reality, that is the only part that is close to being guaranteed, but sometimes you won't even get that.

      read the first timers guides over on the right hand side of this page ------------>>>>>>

      Comment


        #4
        When I first started contracting, I expected I was worth £350 a day, in reality I was out of work for 3 months waiting for that rate, then had to take one at £240. I was only 27 with 3 years of relevant experience, but confident, but in hindsight I now realise that most contractors have many more years of directly relevant experience, so I should have just taken the roles that I initially thought were beneath me.

        I don't know anything about your skills and experience, but I think this is a common scenario amongst new contractors, so don't go for long periods waiting for the perfect role.

        Comment


          #5
          Thanks for the comments so far - useful stuff, although I don't think I explained myself properly on a couple of points:

          - Contract length, I'm not expecting to be "employed" for a long length of time - whilst I quite like the idea of certainty for a few months at a time, I don't want to be tying myself in for extended periods. It's just that a few weeks ago one agency referred to a years contract with 3 months notice (or something to the effect of), and the recruiting manager at this role, mentioned a years contract. In the first case that, to me, is not a years contract - but 3 months. In this role the last thing I want to be doing is committing to much more than 3 or, at worst, 6 months at a go. It sounds as though the notice period is effectively the contract length, as I suspected.

          - Although I'm quite happy taking a lower initial rate to get back on the ladder, the rate that's been mentioned so far (by the client) is substantially below someone else I know doing the same job in a different firm (but same sector) - less than half, as it goes. Personal circumstances are such that I don't mind taking less - but not *that* much less. So the question was twofold.. 1) Is it normal for the client to quote a rate, and for that to be set in stone, or is there more grounds for negotiation with the agency. I get a feeling the latter is the case. Secondly, 2) is it the norm for rates to be renegotiated when the 3months or whatever, is up.. or is it "the done thing" for them to just renew?

          Sorry for so many questions - I probably didn't explain where I was headed, in my first post. I've also read a few horror stories about some agencies taking massive cuts too, and at the back of my mind is the possibility that they'd be earning more out of this contract than me, and I'm not bringing home much more than my wife who does an admin job.

          Comment


            #6
            Originally posted by Bristolian View Post
            Thanks for the comments so far - useful stuff, although I don't think I explained myself properly on a couple of points:

            - Contract length, I'm not expecting to be "employed" for a long length of time - whilst I quite like the idea of certainty for a few months at a time, I don't want to be tying myself in for extended periods. It's just that a few weeks ago one agency referred to a years contract with 3 months notice (or something to the effect of), and the recruiting manager at this role, mentioned a years contract. In the first case that, to me, is not a years contract - but 3 months. In this role the last thing I want to be doing is committing to much more than 3 or, at worst, 6 months at a go. It sounds as though the notice period is effectively the contract length, as I suspected.

            - Although I'm quite happy taking a lower initial rate to get back on the ladder, the rate that's been mentioned so far (by the client) is substantially below someone else I know doing the same job in a different firm (but same sector) - less than half, as it goes. Personal circumstances are such that I don't mind taking less - but not *that* much less. So the question was twofold.. 1) Is it normal for the client to quote a rate, and for that to be set in stone, or is there more grounds for negotiation with the agency. I get a feeling the latter is the case. Secondly, 2) is it the norm for rates to be renegotiated when the 3months or whatever, is up.. or is it "the done thing" for them to just renew?

            Sorry for so many questions - I probably didn't explain where I was headed, in my first post. I've also read a few horror stories about some agencies taking massive cuts too, and at the back of my mind is the possibility that they'd be earning more out of this contract than me, and I'm not bringing home much more than my wife who does an admin job.
            What you're talking about sounds like fixed term contracts which is a different kettle of fish. Most contracts have 1 weeks notice or maybe 24 hours? If you want certainty stick to perm, sounds harsh but that's the way it is.

            You need to get the agency rip off mentality out of your head too, at the moment they hold all the cards because the market is so dire, in good times you'll be holding the cards. I used to let it wind me up but life is too short, again if you can't deal with this maybe stay perm.

            I don't want to put anyone off but it can be a tulipty game, especially right now when supply outstrips demand in many areas.
            Science isn't about why, it's about why not. You ask: why is so much of our science dangerous? I say: why not marry safe science if you love it so much. In fact, why not invent a special safety door that won't hit you in the butt on the way out, because you are fired. - Cave Johnson

            Comment


              #7
              Originally posted by gingerjedi View Post
              What you're talking about sounds like fixed term contracts which is a different kettle of fish. Most contracts have 1 weeks notice or maybe 24 hours? If you want certainty stick to perm, sounds harsh but that's the way it is.
              Agreed. This is not a "contractor" job as we think of it but a fixed term permie position where they are trying to pay a low wage and not give any permie benefits. Take it if you must but keep looking for a proper contract and ditch this one as soon as you can.

              Originally posted by gingerjedi View Post
              You need to get the agency rip off mentality out of your head too, at the moment they hold all the cards because the market is so dire, in good times you'll be holding the cards. I used to let it wind me up but life is too short, again if you can't deal with this maybe stay perm
              I know there are differing views on this but I will never get the agency "rip off" mentality out of my mind. It doesn't eat me up but as a businessman I am always on the lookout for it because it screws both the contractor and the client. If the market is tight then it should be pushing client rates down not padding agency margins.

              In this particular case though, it sounds like the client has brought the agency in so they will most likely be on a Preferred Suppliers List and not taking a very high margin at all - I'd say 5-7% would be typical.
              Free advice and opinions - refunds are available if you are not 100% satisfied.

              Comment


                #8
                Originally posted by Wanderer View Post
                If the market is tight then it should be pushing client rates down not padding agency margins.
                I know that, you know that, I'm starting to wonder if the clients have any idea what's going on? This is why we need transparency on all sides, they won't like having their racket exposed but the fact is there are way too many agencies out there living off fat that adds no value to the contract.
                Science isn't about why, it's about why not. You ask: why is so much of our science dangerous? I say: why not marry safe science if you love it so much. In fact, why not invent a special safety door that won't hit you in the butt on the way out, because you are fired. - Cave Johnson

                Comment


                  #9
                  Originally posted by gingerjedi View Post
                  I know that, you know that, I'm starting to wonder if the clients have any idea what's going on? This is why we need transparency on all sides, they won't like having their racket exposed but the fact is there are way too many agencies out there living off fat that adds no value to the contract.
                  If clients aren't told then they don't know which is why you should never have any problem telling the client your rate.

                  However depending on the client's organisation structure some of them don't care.
                  "You’re just a bad memory who doesn’t know when to go away" JR

                  Comment


                    #10
                    Originally posted by gingerjedi View Post

                    You need to get the agency rip off mentality out of your head too, at the moment they hold all the cards because the market is so dire, in good times you'll be holding the cards. I used to let it wind me up but life is too short, again if you can't deal with this maybe stay perm.
                    Well said. This just sidetracks you from the main task of getting a contract.

                    P.S. Not all agents are rip-off merchants. I know many contractors willingly recommend and praise their agency. I do not know if it has been done here recently but it worth asking the question.. anybody know a good agency? That is if the forum rules permit, off course!

                    Comment

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