Contract - NOT opted out

[LisaContractorUmbrella]

If I have a contract which is obviously IR35 caught then I'm going to have an uphill battle proving I'm outside. And even if the working practices were outside, in 5 years time the client will say "Hmm, oh yes that guy. Yeah, he did some stuff for us. Was on a standard temporary worker contract like all the other temps we have in here, wasn't he. Yeah.". Or maybe the recruiting manager has now left and all the client has is the contract to refer to. The worker now has a real fight to prove that it was b2b rather than temp worker.

Spin it around the other way where you have a watertight b2b contract but you actually work as a permietractor at the client, HMRC now have the hill to climb with regards to proving that you were a "disguised employee". Client memories fade and they start giving vague answers, people move on, old emails get deleted. Time is on the contractor's side here and HMRC have the heavier burden of proof.

IR35 caught contracts also send the wrong message to clients. I'm not there to be assimilated into their company, I'm here to do business and they will respect this more if you make it clear you are in a b2b type relationship.

But then it doesn't matter either way if you work though an umbrella, does it.....

Good points well made and, no, it doesn't matter if you work through a brolly but I would still always advise people to make sure that their working practises are represented in the contract; it should not be the case that there are 2 contracts available for the same job, one inside and one outside, and they are interchangeable

[Old Greg]

Is there any reason why the OP shouldn't just sign the B2B contract and sign the opt-out? Start work with the client and then send a friendly note to the agent helpfully letting them know that you've just been advised that you are in fact opted in as the opt out was signed after being introduced to the client.

[rd409]

Is there any reason why the OP shouldn't just sign the B2B contract and sign the opt-out? Start work with the client and then send a friendly note to the agent helpfully letting them know that you've just been advised that you are in fact opted in as the opt out was signed after being introduced to the client.

That's what I do. When the agent sends me a form for opt out, I specifically sign and put the date when I signed. This makes the whole thing null and void, and the agent thinks he has got me sign the piece of paper which is null and void as I have signed it after being introduced to the client, and most often on the same day as singing the contract.

I am yet to see an agency who insists me signing an opt out form before letting me know the client or even interview.

[Hex]

That's what I do. When the agent sends me a form for opt out, I specifically sign and put the date when I signed. This makes the whole thing null and void, and the agent thinks he has got me sign the piece of paper which is null and void as I have signed it after being introduced to the client, and most often on the same day as singing the contract.

I am yet to see an agency who insists me signing an opt out form before letting me know the client or even interview.

But you are relying on a piece of the legislation that is unclear. It says before "Introduction or Supply". The agent will argue it was signed before you were supplied, you will argue it was signed after you were introduced. If the agency refuses to treat you as opted in you then have to go to court to get a decision and no-one has yet done this as far as I know otherwise we have clarification about what "Introduction or Supply" actually means.

I wouldn't feel comfortable presuming myself opted in on that basis.