Opt out of Conduct of employment agencies 2003 act?

[Wanderer]

C'mon guys, have mercy! If I knew all the implications of clauses in contracts, I wouldn't need to be here.

I start to wonder if this is supposed to be a "discussion forum" or just a place where people get berated by the good and the great for not doing it the ContractorUK way.

I don't see that there is anything intrinsically wrong with asking an accountant for advice on a matter of tax status like IR35. However, if there are contractual negotiations to be done then yes, perhaps one of the contract reviewers might be a good alternative choice as they have more experience in going to bat against agencies.

An agency bullying someone into opting out is nothing new and they can be very aggressive about it. You just have to stand up to them and tell them you want the non opted out version of the contract. They will of course tell you that you are the first person in the history of the universe to not want to opt out and all sorts of other nonsense.

Stick to your guns and refuse point blank to enter into any debate about the meaning of the opt out because they will just want to waffle a load of bulltulip to you and get all argumentative. Just ask them this question:

Is the provision of work finding services conditional on me opting out of The Conduct of Employment Agencies and Employment Business Regulations?

Remind them that you are recording this call, and they can phone a friend if they want to but you need a yes/no answer to this question. They will start waffling about all sorts of stuff but stick to the script. Repeat the question and tell them that if they don't understand it then you can put it in writing or they need to get someone senior to call you back and answer that question for you.

If they answer "no" then you ask for a contract without the opt out section. If they say "yes" then remind them that they are acting illegally - see Agency Conduct Regulations section 32(13) and they should speak to their manager to clarify the answer to this question.

[cojak]

A point to newbies:

Often agents will give you the contract on Thursday and tell you that the client expects you to start work on Monday.

Ignore this comment.

Simply tell them that you will get the contract to B&C/QDOS immediately and provided that there are no problems (as you expect) the client will see you on Wednesday or Thursday.

That's still quick and while the agent can be irritated I've never had one (whose contracts are indeed good) upset with this proposal.

The anger from the agent has been directly proportional to how crap their contract is.

[Contreras]

A point to newbies:

Often agents will give you the contract on Thursday and tell you that the client expects you to start work on Monday.

Ignore this comment.

Simply tell them that you will get the contract to B&C/QDOS immediately and provided that there are no problems (as you expect) the client will see you on Wednesday or Thursday.

That's still quick and while the agent can be irritated I've never had one (whose contracts are indeed good) upset with this proposal.

The anger from the agent has been directly proportional to how crap their contract is.

Agree absolutely with all of that.

I have to wonder though with all the hot air enthusiasm for contract reviews whether some people here forget about the purpose of a contract beyond IR35.

As for any other business, it makes commercial sense to discover the other party's terms of business at the start of negotiations. Ask for the agency's standard draft contract as soon as it looks like an offer is forthcoming and keep pushing.

This will happen sooner if they know (believe) that not doing so could delay start of the contract. Ditto for getting amendments.

That said, and not withstanding my sig. , to answer falkera - I wouldn't actually delay starting a contract over an Opt-out clause. But then I've never known an agent that would risk their commission over an Opt-out clause either!

[Wanderer]

As for any other business, it makes commercial sense to discover the other party's terms of business at the start of negotiations. Ask for the agency's standard draft contract as soon as it looks like an offer is forthcoming and keep pushing.

From the agent's point of view not presenting the terms of business until the 11th hour is a good thing because the hapless contractor is bullied into signing the contract without having too much time to argue the point over it...

[SueEllen]

From the agent's point of view not presenting the terms of business until the 11th hour is a good thing because the hapless contractor is bullied into signing the contract without having too much time to argue the point over it...

Unfortunately the poor 20 year old agent has to deal with the likes of you and me who know all their tricks....

[cojak]

Agree absolutely with all of that.

I have to wonder though with all the hot air enthusiasm for contract reviews whether some people here forget about the purpose of a contract beyond IR35.

As for any other business, it makes commercial sense to discover the other party's terms of business at the start of negotiations. Ask for the agency's standard draft contract as soon as it looks like an offer is forthcoming and keep pushing.

This will happen sooner if they know (believe) that not doing so could delay start of the contract. Ditto for getting amendments.

That said, and not withstanding my sig. , to answer falkera - I wouldn't actually delay starting a contract over an Opt-out clause. But then I've never known an agent that would risk their commission over an Opt-out clause either!

I do indeed ask for a draft contract asap, that was basic info for newbies.

[MyUserName]

I explain to them that it is a requirement for my insurance that I get the contract reviewed before signing it and QDOS have a turnaround of 3-5 days. I would love to get this sorted faster as I am sure the contract is fine but my hands are tied!

[SueEllen]

I explain to them that it is a requirement for my insurance that I get the contract reviewed before signing it and QDOS have a turnaround of 3-5 days. I would love to get this sorted faster as I am sure the contract is fine but my hands are tied!

I don't bother.

I state I'm doing due diligence and cannot agree to something I haven't read.

I also use lots of Mmm's when they are talking rubbish.

I also have said on occasion talking to me more doesn't speed up the contract review process.

[Kess]

I've just been awarded a new contract. The agent made no mention of opting in or out before or after the interview; fortunately I noticed the contract he supplied had "opt out" in the title. When I queried it the agent responded with the following justification:

The majority of our limited company contractors usually opt out for the following reasons:

· IR35: there is an argument that being covered by the Conduct Regulations could affect the IR35 status of limited company contractors

· Client Feedback: many clients have stated their preference for opted out workers. These clients think that there may be an increased risk of co-employment if the contractor does not opt out because of the employee-type protection which is arguably provided by the Conduct Regulations.

I resisted the urge to point out that many of their contractors probably opt out simply because they get given the opt out contract by default and don't realise they have a choice. The client feedback argument just sounds like BS.

I've requested a copy of the opt-in version of the contract; it will be interesting to see how the wording compares...

[Wanderer]

IR35: there is an argument that being covered by the Conduct Regulations could affect the IR35 status of limited company contractors

Nice to hear they are so concerned but when they come out with this tulip I just point out that the consultant company's IR35 status is nothing to do with the agency.

The client feedback argument just sounds like BS.

· Client Feedback: many clients have stated their preference for opted out workers. These clients think that there may be an increased risk of co-employment if the contractor does not opt out because of the employee-type protection which is arguably provided by the Conduct Regulations.

The clients are most likely confusing the Agency Workers Regulations and the agency are in no hurry to point out that this opt out actually refers to the Agency Conduct Regulations which protects contractors AND clients from unscrupulous agencies....