Contracting in Switzerland - Let the Naive Beware!

[xchaotic]

@IanSmithUK: I think with the blessing of Internet, it is possible to do some research without actually going to a place.
My diagnosis is that Switzerland has got nothing to do with it, you'd be best off working on a high salary as a permanent employee, or working through an umbrella as your personality is not very keen on taking the additional risks/complexities that are associated with running your own business in addition to performing your work duties.
The fact that only a small percentage of workforce are contractors and majority are permies says that there's nothing wrong with you, you're just normal (but probably better off mentally staying away from uncertainty of contracting)

[SueEllen]

I did want to generate discussion, but a troll like MF being offensive from the "get go" does not generate discussion, just a "conversation" that quickly degenerates into name-calling and unnecessary heat. I doubt very much he'd behave that way face-to-face. As for the "friends who support you" - it didn't feel that way, let me tell you, not with all the abuse I got for being so stupid as to waste time arguing with someone everyone else quite clearly thought was "an idiot with no life just getting his pleasure out of being obnoxious on an internet forum".

You obviously haven't posted on enough different types of internet forums. Compared to Mumsnet we are pussy cats.

And the phrase "around the block a bit" can apply to different areas. MF may well have been "around the block a bit" but didn't contribute anything of value other than to presume what I was like to work with and bitch and whine (or as another user here put it "rant") I've been around the block a bit myself (3 years in Saudi, 2 years in Kuwait, a year in Germany, a year in Ireland, six months in the States) - none of it was relevant to what I posted here.

Actually it is. If you are intelligent enough to be able to sort out your personal tax affairs in those other countries how come you didn't research personal taxation in Switzerland before having the interview?

As for the whole "Long, rambling" thing. Well yes, that's a fault of mine. So crucify me for it. God forbid that someone should be long and rambling in trying to get the details of something across.

I one of the people who if she gets pissed off with companies will write a complaint letter.

Experience (ok after my third complaint years ago) has taught me if you don't want your words deliberately misinterpreted you need to write your complaint to be as short and concise as possible.

Your long complaint allows the agent wiggle room with the client, and to turn around and say I did x and y but obviously he didn't understand it and is disorganised.

[JaredM]

I've not had nearly as many problems in Switzerland. I think the most frustrating part of it was no one seems to be clear on the rules since they change each year as the Swiss slowly come into line with EU migration regulations.

For NI, all I had to do was fill out a form to HMRC and they confirmed I'm eligible to pay NI only in the UK. I gave that to the Swiss agents and that meant I no longer had to have NI deductions.

Also, you can work a certain period without having to pay any taxes in Switzerland, only in the UK.

Again, its hard to get the right information and it varies by canton which doesn't help.

Hope you have better luck on your next gig.

[stek]

I've not had nearly as many problems in Switzerland. I think the most frustrating part of it was no one seems to be clear on the rules since they change each year as the Swiss slowly come into line with EU migration regulations.

For NI, all I had to do was fill out a form to HMRC and they confirmed I'm eligible to pay NI only in the UK. I gave that to the Swiss agents and that meant I no longer had to have NI deductions.

Also, you can work a certain period without having to pay any taxes in Switzerland, only in the UK.

Again, its hard to get the right information and it varies by canton which doesn't help.

Hope you have better luck on your next gig.

Agreed, and it's always helpful to be able to speak German, or preferably that unintelligible babble called Swiss-German, spent ages in a Zurich restaurant asking for Hähnchen (chicken), only eventually for the lass to say, oh you mean Poulet?

[IanSmithUK]

You obviously haven't posted on enough different types of internet forums. Compared to Mumsnet we are pussy cats.

Actually it is. If you are intelligent enough to be able to sort out your personal tax affairs in those other countries how come you didn't research personal taxation in Switzerland before having the interview?

If MF (the only person who was posting on here for the first couple of days of replies) is a "pussycat", then he's a leopard! But thanks for the warning about mumsnet. I'll make sure I steer well clear.

I think there is plenty of evidence even on this thread that the rules are complex and every person you ask has a different answer. My accountant was my first port of call but it's unfair to expect him to be an expert on Swiss tax and canton law when even those working in the country are struggling to understand the subtleties of the different canton rules, which appear to be based on where you're going to be living (anybody see a Catch 22 here, given the difficulty of sorting out accommodation).

Specifics on the crucial stuff (the cost of "Food, food and food", as one contractor already out there put it to me) is pretty hard to find, and was probably the most enlightening part of my trip out there to try and find out the reality of costs, accommodation availability etc.

You ask "Why didn't I research personal taxation before having the interview?" Uk agencies ALL deluge you with crazy possible offers, tell you the contract's pretty much yours, your CV is excellent etc and can they arrange an interview... only for you to then never hear a word back (the ones who insist they're "different" and will always keep you fully informed are always by far the worst at ever giving you any feedback at all once they've grabbed your CV to get names of companies to then hassle for possible work). If I did the research for every role I was asked "Would you be interested in....?" to the level some here appear to expect as the absolute minumum I'd never have any free time again, or the time to actually do any real work.

In this case I was asked if I'd consider working in Switzerland and I said "yes" based on the very basic facts put in front of me at the time. I was somewhat surprised when unlike most other agency enquiries, interviews were set up almost immediately. Those interviews were extremly time-boxed and geared very much towards the client getting what they needed to know about me out of the process, with no time for me to "turn the tables" (until I flew out to Zurich and effectively demanded reciprocation by saying "I'm here at great expense. Give me an hour of your time").

Quite frankly, the research required isn't something that can be undertaken just on the promise that one MIGHT get an interview. Far too much of it depends on taxation, which appears to be tied to the canton you live in, which can't be determined until you've got accommodation sorted. Knowledge of that requires knowledge of the local market and all takes significant time (especially when you don't speak German).

Honestly, there are so many "holier than thou" types spouting "You should have done the research" or "You should have done this or that" in response to my just trying to warn others of some pitfalls when considering this sort of left-field offer that an agency might throw at you I really wonder why I wasted my time in posting here to "warn" others. My bad!

The idea that clowns like MF are more "professional" than me I find laughable. Any idiot can endlessly troll newcomers or sit in the corner going "You're an idiot and I'm not" (like kids in a schoolyard going "My dad's bigger than your dad. Nyaaa nyaa". That approach says EVERYTHING I need to know about THEIR level of professionalism!

[IanSmithUK]

Why on earth did'nt you simply say that the rate was not high enough compared to what you were being offered elsewhere. It makes you look pretty stupid to have not done your homework on costs of living in Switzerland and I very much doubt that the client is in the slightest bit interested in the detailed account (Diatribe of whingeing) of why you were not getting the money that you were after. The fact that you do not understand why the client should be interested in your reasons is enough to cast doubt on your ability to make business focussed judgements whilst working.

I did quite early on. But if I'd added all the detail about the to-and-fro of discovering each new cost (insurance deductions, canton differences, reality of accommodation costs, and most importantly of all "Food food food") and the subsequent changes to the offer made that would have added even more detail. And that was discussion between myself and the agent not myself and the client.

Make your mind up. I either provide all the detail or I provide none. What I attempted to do (and clearly failed at, although to read some here Moses could come down from the mountain and it still wouldn't be good enough) was to provide enough "detail" to warn others of the main issues.

Honestly the "holier than thou" attitude here is astonishing. I didn't provide enough detail of the whole process. I provided too much. I give up!

Edited to add: Is it just me who finds it funny that someone calling themselves "DodgyAgent" is giving me advice on "business focussed judgements"?

[MarillionFan]

Ian. Ignoring your continuing annoyance at me, I'm interested in how you approached working in the US, Saudi etc. Was this through your Ltd company? Did the client pay expenses etc

You've obviously worked in far reaching locations?

I think what this thread shows/merits is that it would be interesting from a CUK perspective to have a 'Contracting Abroad' FAQ and document the differences, possible catch outs, need to knows etc associated with different countries. That would be a pretty useful thread.

[stek]

Ian. Ignoring your continuing annoyance at me, I'm interested in how you approached working in the US, Saudi etc. Was this through your Ltd company? Did the client pay expenses etc

You've obviously worked in far reaching locations?

I think what this thread shows/merits is that it would be interesting from a CUK perspective to have a 'Contracting Abroad' FAQ and document the differences, possible catch outs, need to knows etc associated with different countries. That would be a pretty useful thread.

Agree with MF, CH isn't THAT hard to work out. Consider also that after a suitable period you'd qualify for RAV.

If you don't know what that is, you should read more.

[nomadd]

...in response to my just trying to warn others of some pitfalls when considering this sort of left-field offer that an agency might throw at you I really wonder why I wasted my time in posting here to "warn" others. My bad!

Not really wasting your time. I quite enjoyed your post. As for the trolls/nutters/etc. on here, as one of the mods has suggested, set-up an ignore list. Mine is very long.

EDIT: Just to make it clear, though, I don't think you needed such a letter. A quick phone call to the agent - not client - would have sufficed.

[DodgyAgent]

Edited to add: Is it just me who finds it funny that someone calling themselves "DodgyAgent" is giving me advice on "business focussed judgements"?

Life is just one long irony