Giving notice

[DodgyAgent]

Oh, does that not happen, then?

Do any of you do any training on the subjects of sales marketing networking influencing? One or two of you clearly regard your relationship with the client as confrontational/adversarial.
There is a book by Steven Covey called seven habits of highly effective people. I suggest that you read it.

[boredsenseless]

Do any of you do any training on the subjects of sales marketing networking influencing? One or two of you clearly regard your relationship with the client as confrontational/adversarial.
There is a book by Steven Covey called seven habits of highly effective people. I suggest that you read it.

A strangely wise comment from our resident agent.

If you can't trust your client (and in fact the agent who introduced you) then I have to ask...

"W H Y T H E F @ C K A R E Y O U W O R K I NG W I T H T H E M"

Get some dignity back in your life and work with people you trust and respect. Even if you don't respect them trust should be a minimum for any commercial contract!

[Denny]

Oh, does that not happen, then?

My point exactly. The bottom line is this: if recruiters are involved in the end-client to contractor relationship then we are merely commodities being provided by the recruiter. There is no loyalty lent to us at all either by recruiter or end-client.

I will bent over backwards to service my own gained clients even if the rate they're paying me isn't that great. I will go in at weekends, work late without pay and do extra tasks that wasn't part of my original remit. After all, I want them to ring me again for additonal work without me having the hassle of competing against other would be bods to do the same work.

When recruiters are involved the end-client has effectively said to me 'you are not someone I want to deal with directly and wish to dissasociate myself from you by whatever means possible.' That is not a good foundation to foster a good, loyal freelance service provider relationship.

As I said above: if you are still outside IR35 I will 'do what is necessary to get the job done well until the contract ends' if not outside IR35 I will behave as if I am an employee and stick by the rules and do the job until I need to leave whether that's sooner than the contracted period or not. What I won't do under any circumstances is treat the end-client as if they are my own clients that deserve some special kind of service and loyalty from me which I would never get from them in return. They're not our clients - period - and they don't want to be our clients so until they hire me directly that's exactly the way I will continue to act.

[expat]

Do any of you do any training on the subjects of sales marketing networking influencing? One or two of you clearly regard your relationship with the client as confrontational/adversarial.
There is a book by Steven Covey called seven habits of highly effective people. I suggest that you read it.

I have a copy and have read it and put some effort into applying some of it (and lent it to my boss once!).

I do regard as no longer based on trust, my relationship with anyone who breaks the trust that I thought was there. So, for example, if a client enforces a reduction in rate during the period of a contract, I would then no longer see an implied moral obligation not to use the notice clause on my side.

That's what I meant, sorry I wasn't clear. And as you know it did happen quite a bit in the recent lean years. what's sauce for the goose is sauce for the gander (except of course in France).

PS having contracted since 1978, albeit now without a break, I have never jumped ship.

[DodgyAgent]

I have a copy and have read it and put some effort into applying some of it (and lent it to my boss once!).

I do regard as no longer based on trust, my relationship with anyone who breaks the trust that I thought was there. So, for example, if a client enforces a reduction in rate during the period of a contract, I would then no longer see an implied moral obligation not to use the notice clause on my side.

That's what I meant, sorry I wasn't clear. And as you know it did happen quite a bit in the recent lean years. what's sauce for the goose is sauce for the gander (except of course in France).

PS having contracted since 1978, albeit now without a break, I have never jumped ship.

Did you bother to try and understand why the client reduced your pay? I am not quite sure where "morals" fit into all this expat. It seems more like you are sulking.

[expat]

Do any of you do any training on the subjects of sales marketing networking influencing? One or two of you clearly regard your relationship with the client as confrontational/adversarial.

That's a good observation though. Personally I prefer not to, that's why I contract. I find permanent employment much more adversarial.

[expat]

Did you bother to try and understand why the client reduced your pay? I am not quite sure where "morals" fit into all this expat. It seems more like you are sulking.

Nobody ever has. Normally they ask me to extend, often several times. I always do, unless my personal plans call me to another place; and never ask for a higher rate. And when I do want for personal reasons to go somewhere else, I explain that and discuss shorter extensions to reach natural breakpoints/knowledge transfer, etc.

So please don't lecture me about sulking.

Morals fit into this bit: "if a client enforces a reduction in rate during the period of a contract, I would then no longer see an implied moral obligation not to use the notice clause on my side."

[DodgyAgent]

Does society owe Denny a living?

My point exactly. The bottom line is this: if recruiters are involved in the end-client to contractor relationship then we are merely commodities being provided by the recruiter. There is no loyalty lent to us at all either by recruiter or end-client.

I will bent over backwards to service my own gained clients even if the rate they're paying me isn't that great. I will go in at weekends, work late without pay and do extra tasks that wasn't part of my original remit. After all, I want them to ring me again for additonal work without me having the hassle of competing against other would be bods to do the same work.

When recruiters are involved the end-client has effectively said to me 'you are not someone I want to deal with directly and wish to dissasociate myself from you by whatever means possible.' That is not a good foundation to foster a good, loyal freelance service provider relationship.

As I said above: if you are still outside IR35 I will 'do what is necessary to get the job done well until the contract ends' if not outside IR35 I will behave as if I am an employee and stick by the rules and do the job until I need to leave whether that's sooner than the contracted period or not. What I won't do under any circumstances is treat the end-client as if they are my own clients that deserve some special kind of service and loyalty from me which I would never get from them in return. They're not our clients - period - and they don't want to be our clients so until they hire me directly that's exactly the way I will continue to act.

I have seen some nonsense in this industry but this is quite bizarre. So in effect you are telling clients that by using agencies they do not know what they are doing, and that in so doing are going to teach them a lesson and behave like a confrontational jobsworth?

Quite apart from the childish immaturity of such sulky behaviour there is a revolting stench of hypocrisy:

First of all your sheer arrogance to presume to know how a customer should conduct their business is sataggering, secondly if you have such a problem with agencies what on Earth are you doing contemplating taking work through them?

Denny your attitude is that of a "bone in the nose" inbred redneck. No wonder you have no work.

[DodgyAgent]

Morals fit into this bit: "if a client enforces a reduction in rate during the period of a contract, I would then no longer see an implied moral obligation not to use the notice clause on my side."

That is fine and admirable, but it is not businesslike because if the client does something that you dont like you resort to sulking.

[Denny]

I have seen some nonsense in this industry but this is quite bizarre. So in effect you are telling clients that by using agencies they do not know what they are doing, and that in so doing are going to teach them a lesson and behave like a confrontational jobsworth?

Quite apart from the childish immaturity of such sulky behaviour there is a revolting stench of hypocrisy:

First of all your sheer arrogance to presume to know how a customer should conduct their business is sataggering, secondly if you have such a problem with agencies what on Earth are you doing contemplating taking work through them?

Denny your attitude is that of a "bone in the nose" inbred redneck. No wonder you have no work.

I have seen some nonsense in this industry but this is quite bizarre. So in effect you are telling clients that by using agencies they do not know what they are doing, and that in so doing are going to teach them a lesson and behave like a confrontational jobsworth?

You're interpretation of what I've clearly written smacks of the kind of 'red alert, subversive in action got to nip in the bud immediately as they pose a threat to our industry' crap. As I've already said, CLEARLY, they are not 'clients' they are end-clients of the recruiter. Who said anything about being confrontational? I merely said that if I needed to leave earlier than the contract was set up for (let's face it the contract length is not legally worth the paper it's written on) then I would give notice properly and professionally. I never implied I would walk out, leave anyone in the tulip and so on. If however, I was asked by a private client to carry out a long-term piece of work that clashed with my current 'recruiter' gained role then I would leave. After all, I am a business first and foremost and my interests lie in exploiting the hidden market and getting a flow of work from them where I am not having to continuously compete for roles (at my own expenses too?) against other recruiter forwarded candidates. As many contractors have pointed out - the recruitment industry is not the best way for getting work nor is it the avenue most independent contractors would choose for getting business. I'm no different.

Like any self-respecting professional in contracting, I see recruiters as a necessary evil for which I do the occasional favour of allowing to source for their end-clients. The fact that I may need the work at the time is neither here or there when the contractual arrangement that actually exists is between recruiter and their own end-client. Until the recruitment model substantially changes then that's how I will continue to view it.

Quite apart from the childish immaturity of such sulky behaviour there is a revolting stench of hypocrisy:

There is nothing my hypocritical that a recruitment industry founded on a pack of lies, risk averse processes, distorted marketing techniques, skewed language and trade body protections that serve neither client nor candidate.

First of all your sheer arrogance to presume to know how a customer should conduct their business is sataggering, secondly if you have such a problem with agencies what on Earth are you doing contemplating taking work through them?

Again, we resort to the 'why do you take work through agencies' argument or non-argument as is really the case. If large FTSEs and govt departments sourced most of their work in my field direct, do you think we'd be having this conversation?

Denny your attitude is that of a "bone in the nose" inbred redneck. No wonder you have no work.

I do. I have some private work at the end of the week with a longstanding private client of six years plus and some more next week with another newly acquired private client. The reason I've not been successful with recruiter led roles lately is because most of the roles I've applied for have been shelved for budgeting reasons. My CV not very often ignored or not forwarded. The problems tend to be with the end-client. If my CV or attitude was bad then I would never be represented in the first place.