State of the market

[amcdonald]

Tulip ad of the day.

Our client in Cardiff is looking for a Java Developer to start immediately: All candidates will require good English communication skills, be self motivated and be a good Team worker. Specific skills required for the role: JEE 1.4 (EJB, MDB, container-managed transactions) JDBC JavaScript JDom Java Enterprise application Servers configuration (ideally JBoss) SQL Awareness of GIS/coordinate systems (ideally Oracle Spatial) Desirable skills required for the role: JBoss PL-SQL Oracle Spatial JSF (v1.2) Facelets (v1.4) Oracle database design Mapping Tool eg Mapinfo and Google Earth AJAX Windows 2003 Red Hat linux [view full job]

Specified rate in job ad?

£175 per day.

But's a good rate for a bob

[PropertyCrashUK]

But's a good rate for a bob

I have seen roles like that advertised in Wales for as little as 12K.

In certain Welsh public sector bodies the IT staff are on the same pay scales as the clerical staff so sometimes 20K - absolute tops - is what they want for a long list of skills which are very complex to learn.

Even better is when they add the various certifications also as a requirement, usually throw in Prince 2 and SC... and certain Police Forces in Wales have often advertised most of the above plus - I have seen these ads myself - wanting the applicant to be a member of some IT professional body of the UK.

And often all for about 15K to 20K.

I am noticing lots of contracts in Wales now which appear to be permie salaries advertised as contracting - peanut rates and seemingly no understanding of the costs of being someone self-employed.

I think economically Wales is fecked but those on the gravy train cannot comprehend yet what is happening - but they are happy to try and get others to work for wages they would not be prepared to work for themselves let alone having any understanding of the complexity of the technologies asked for.

[perplexed]

I'd not disagree there.

It's not just public sector either. Last year, agent tried to convince me to take a contract - rate was incredibly low.

When I pointed that out, he replied "yeah, but the client are paying PAYE/NI, tax etc..."

I pointed out he was talking about temp perm employment rather than contract, his reply was that was the way the client wanted him to sell the role...

[PropertyCrashUK]

I'd not disagree there.

It's not just public sector either. Last year, agent tried to convince me to take a contract - rate was incredibly low.

When I pointed that out, he replied "yeah, but the client are paying PAYE/NI, tax etc..."

I pointed out he was talking about temp perm employment rather than contract, his reply was that was the way the client wanted him to sell the role...

twerp. So many in Wales economically illiterate.

[perplexed]

Yeah.

That's why of all the contracts I've worked, only one has been in South Wales; that for a multi national who have an idea of how to manage contract staff...

[pastalista]

Thanks for the heads up.

How did you wangle Head of ICT as a contractor in a public sector organisation? Is it some rural Council?

It is. But I have also been ICT Director at a central Government department and Director of Programmes at another.

This kind of work is out there (or at least used to be) but I acknowledge that it is rare.

[PropertyCrashUK]

It is. But I have also been ICT Director at a central Government department and Director of Programmes at another.

This kind of work is out there (or at least used to be) but I acknowledge that it is rare.

I was approached in the last fortnight about a similar role for a smallish Council in Wales but the rate for 12 months was £200 per day. By the time accomodation, travel, etc, plus usual self-employment costs were factored in it was a lousy rate.

[MrMark]

I think economically Wales is fecked but those on the gravy train cannot comprehend yet what is happening - but they are happy to try and get others to work for wages they would not be prepared to work for themselves let alone having any understanding of the complexity of the technologies asked for.

It's depressing enough seeing low-paid jobs here in England. They want to put a poorly paid plodder in charge of (probably) the most important and technically demanding part of their business or enterprise?

[pastalista]

It's depressing enough seeing low-paid jobs here in England. They want to put a poorly paid plodder in charge of (probably) the most important and technically demanding part of their business or enterprise?

Having been in meetings recently where this kind of thing was discussed, the view of the permie Civil Servants is that "there are lots of good people that have been made redundant and therefore we don't need to pay as much for xxxxxxxxxx (insert one of numerous different job titles)".

I have tried explaining that I, for instance, would rather eat my own waste products than sell myself into a company for the kind of rate they are talking about but they seem to think that I am only saying that from the safety of an engaged position. I've actually done it in previous recessions. Well, ok, not the eating my own waste part but I have declined roles at insulting rates to my own detriment fiscally.

The thing is, this happened in the last two recessions and what I found was that roles I turned down on an insulting rate turned up again 6 months later on a much better rate when the a55hole they had engaged at tuppence a month screwed things up. It's a waiting game and circular in nature. We'll climb to the top of the circle again soon enough.

And by then the rates will have to go up mightily to cover off the fact the Hector will have made us all PAYE slaves by deciding that ltd co is "clear tax avoidance". G1ts.

Pastalista

[amcdonald]

I have seen roles like that advertised in Wales for as little as 12K.

In certain Welsh public sector bodies the IT staff are on the same pay scales as the clerical staff so sometimes 20K - absolute tops - is what they want for a long list of skills which are very complex to learn.

Even better is when they add the various certifications also as a requirement, usually throw in Prince 2 and SC... and certain Police Forces in Wales have often advertised most of the above plus - I have seen these ads myself - wanting the applicant to be a member of some IT professional body of the UK.

And often all for about 15K to 20K.

I am noticing lots of contracts in Wales now which appear to be permie salaries advertised as contracting - peanut rates and seemingly no understanding of the costs of being someone self-employed.

I think economically Wales is fecked but those on the gravy train cannot comprehend yet what is happening - but they are happy to try and get others to work for wages they would not be prepared to work for themselves let alone having any understanding of the complexity of the technologies asked for.

£12k ???, when I went to see my granny near Bangor I popped in to Lidl to get her supplies and they had adverts for checkout staff at £7 an hour

Why would anyone bother taking a IT job for little more ?

Saying that I had an agent phone up about work in London, trying to get me to do a permie job and I just laughed as it literally paid as much as McDonalds manager in London, good thing I'm not on the market yet by the look of it (: