No More Agencies IT Position Website

[Agencies Lie]

Defeatism

All I hear is defeatism. That's fine for no hopers with no imagination and no vision. To say that things are the way they are and offer some flimsy rationale for keeping the staus quo smacks of pure indifference and lethargy. Clients have not yet been offered an attractive alternative - pure and simple. Do you think clients are out to line the pockets of middlemen? No, if offered a choice I know what their accountants would choose.

I am not out to convince anybody, yes discuss the idea but to continue a thread of hopelessness and self pity is pathetic. Regardless, we now have our numbers to begin and so we have work to do. Thank you all for your contributions. As for that 'rant' against Blair, well what can I say? It's so reasonable even for the hard of thinking! I can see that you are somebody who can make big changes and maybe bring down the government. Stick to the day job...when the agency gets you one.

[DimPrawn]

Re: Defeatism

Agencies Lie,

You have yet to put together any rational argument why your offering is better for CLIENTS. There is nothing new in your idea. Clients just want the quickest, easiest and least risky way to bet bums on seats. If your system gives them any hassle or risk (real or perceived), it is a no hoper.

Personally, I believe you are a troll, but incase i'm wrong, good luck.

I'll continue taking my medication and have a lie down now...

[TinTin]

Re: Learn the market

The secret is to know your market and who your clients are rather than preaching to the converted (us) about the benefits of going direct.
Truth hurts but DP is right. Clients want (not love) agencies, not because they charge more but because they serve their purpose, this being that they can 'independently assess' the potential candidates thus providing a short list for them and take the blame (blame-game is the keyword) if anything goes wrong even if it is their (the clients') fault. Unless you come across a contractor who is in charge of hiring and probably knows his stuff, it is usually HR or other permanent staff that are responsible for recruiting.
Point is, it is not their money and so it doesn't work on the Easyjet/Go/etc principle of saving the commission.
Secondly, you need to be able to guarantee that the contractor will get his money from the client and for this you may bear responsibility as an introducer (maybe special insurance can sort it out - who is to pay though ?)
Leaving aside all other arguments, I shall return to the main one ie the 'shifting of blame' of which IT management is so good at. This is the reason behing the phenomenal rise of the consultancies that now operate in the previously lucrative areas for individual contractors such as CRM (eg Siebel) and ERP (eg SAP) where the no of contracts has fallen while the work has gone up. A previous posting by another member that was trying to set up consultancies direct using the skills of individual contractors while retaining some sort of overall management structure is a much more original and useful proposal albeit for a small no of contractors (how did it go ?)

[JoeTheCarioca]

Re: Defeatism

It is much better for a contractor to create a good relationship with several agents or RC's who will make the effort to market him and his skills and abilities. I have been successful at identifying several in the UK lately, and, yes, even in the USA, over the years.

It does help to make friends with such people. At the least, you are not going to be just another CV.

The trouble is not with the system but with the garbage in the system. There are too many people in business whose main talent is taking the piss on the world, and not on doing the hard work required to be successful. (This is pandemic in the USA.) We certainly can identify those individuals in agencies and client companies and maintain a database on those who have a high 'talk to walk' ratio or to express it in another politically correct way, are 'ethically challenged'.

With this information, we can ascertain whether or not their behaviour exhibited to date warrants preferential treatment. Credit rating agencies and credit scorers do this to help lenders determine the riskiness of customers and potential customers. We can do the same. When things swing the other way, those who treated us well and respected as professionals will get our preferred attention while those that do not will not be invited to the party or at least pay a high admission fee to attend.

I have informed RC's and agencies to act likewise. We need to understand that we contractors and agencies offer valuable services to clients. Clients must realise that a pile of thier cash will never get the work done, and at the end of the day, provides nourishment only to vermin. (Gold and silver can't even do that!) It is only through our efforts (and that includes permies) that will enable client companies to be successful and we need to be respected for our knowledge and experience.

It is essential that we determine our boundaries as to what is acceptable behaviour to us in this business. Those that respect us will enjoy the fruits of our labour. Those that do not can go elsewhere and face the consequences. Other service professionals from medicine to mechanics act in this manner and in this time of crisis, so must we.

If we can not respect give value to ourselves, then no one else is likely to do so. We can hold others to account for their actions, but blaming them is not going to help our situation.

We in the UK, and those of us who shall be in the UK, need to take note of this. The British are known worldwide for their understanding and tradition of what is proper behaviour. Much of Western Europe got taught a nasty lesson sixty years ago as to the consequences of being nasty. It is learning that needs to be remembered and constantly applied, in order to avoid similar events or what may well be in America's future very soon. We IT contractors can take the lead in this endeavour.

[bbcdancer]

Re: Defeatism

I agree with both sides of the arguement.... However, I would consider that a hybrid agency would satisfy both parties....

Like.....
How about a hybrid agency that only would only charge the company or the jobseeker £250 if they are happy with the positive results. How about a agency that only get paid a fixed amount to only filtering the top ten CV's to match the job requirements... Maybe we can give the client the option to advertise jobs at a small price on our site and add the CV filter functionality tool to help them select the best applicant...
If they want extra services, like check references, drafting contracts, PAYE scheme, setting psy.. tests then we can charge a small fixed fee...

Of course this hybrid agency would have a super dupa website like jobserve, but I would consider that hybrid agency will also have the technical and legal knowledge to make employers feel at ease in finding a job applicant or contractor...

In essence, the hybrid agency would be competitve agency that forces existing agencies to change their bad business habits. By offering a high quality service to both the jobseeker and client at a price which is free, until a perfect match achieved.

I think a hybrid agency can really make a positive impact and surive this market.....

what do you think?

[dazza12]

Agencies Lie

Your idea could work. But then it might not. Only way to know is to try it out.

BUT....

Remember you posted on this board to ask us for our opinions. I've tracked this conversation for a few days and all I can see is you taking any criticism personally. I know your intentions are honourable, after all I have been shafted by an agency (still in the contract) and I'd love to contract directly. But criticising similar sites such as contractdb.com is not the way to go about it.

Bear this in mind. Why would an IT manager use your site instead of an agency? The agency route saves them the time and hassle of selecting the correct. Also, it's going to be much easier for them to find an agency than a direct contract site. We may not like agencies but the system works. And the dishonest agencies are going to lose out when the market gets back on track.

All we wish is that you do a lot of homework before setting this up. The big word is going to be marketing. You could have the best site in the world, but unless HR or IT managers know about it it's not going to work.

I wish you well. But please - listen to the people who are going to use your site. If you don't, you may as well put the idea to bed now.


www.contractordb.co.uk

[FessalB]

I shall be interested in discussing this further.

Fundamentally you are raising 3 points:

1. The unprofessional behaviour of Agencies in an employers market
2. The building of a site that promotes "contractors direct"
3. A possible umbrella company to cater for the need of contractors at no costs to themselves.

I am working on the third proposition and will soon make an announcement

In the mean time I have set up a Board " Agencies Practices" which I trust all of you will visit to share your experiences. I would even suggest " a name and shame campaign", as long as the contributors are aware of Libel laws/implications

No one, I repeat no one, can control/manipulate our future, unless we allow them to do so!

[fancellu]

JobsHive: Our experience

Our experience has been that employers on the whole much prefer going through agencies.

We charge nothing, to anyone, yet have trouble getting employers with jobs.

e.g. email 300 employers' jobs@ email address, i.e.
all directed, and we'll be lucky to get 1 more employer sign on. Its a real shame.

Dino.

www.jobshive.com

[McBainCo]

Re: JobsHive: Our experience

Fancellu,

IMO, it is because you are not reaching the right "person" within the "employer". This is because employers prefer and seek status co. In addition they tend to favour exixting relationships.

A suggestion would be:

1. Seek real names within employers (ask contractors to give you lead)
2. Target these people making clear how your service is different from others and what value do you add to the process.

Only agencies run by contractors are likely to be successful in future!

Good luck

[BobHope2]

Re: http://www.no-agency.com/

looking good at the moment (it's just a file listing of the parent dir)