Rates and Margins in these times..

[the_duderama]

Elan IT are going in to all gov departments and offering contractors at 5% margin....my current gig asked me what my contact says about them changing the agent. It says pay ££,£££ so they are not bothering changing.

Elan IT are all driving Fiestas now!

That'll explain why they couldn't absorb may 12% rate cut!

[nevergoingtopay]

That'll explain why they could absorb may 12% rate cut!

So that means they were taking at least 17% maybe more...

You can tell I don't like them?

[shanti]

Anyone got any pointers??

Anyone got any tricks to stop your time being wasted by Agents who are posting on job boards, but either do not have an open role, are just keeping them selves busy collecting CVs or have established candidates in hand and are just fishing to see who else is on the market?

*Ask for a job specification to be sent to you first? (if they have one and can be bothered to send it - more likely to exist)
*Ask questions about the role being signed off or budgetted? (see if they have a valid story)
*Ask if they have already submitted to their clients and the status? (might give you an honest answer)

.. how do you stop burning hours carving out targetted CV's when agents do not have bonafide, signed off roles - or are just probably pitching speculatively to clients.

.. any tips anyone?

[nevergoingtopay]

Anyone got any tricks to stop your time being wasted by Agents who are posting on job boards, but either do not have an open role, are just keeping them selves busy collecting CVs or have established candidates in hand and are just fishing to see who else is on the market?

*Ask for a job specification to be sent to you first? (if they have one and can be bothered to send it - more likely to exist)
*Ask questions about the role being signed off or budgetted? (see if they have a valid story)
*Ask if they have already submitted to their clients and the status? (might give you an honest answer)

.. how do you stop burning hours carving out targetted CV's when agents do not have bonafide, signed off roles - or are just probably pitching speculatively to clients.

.. any tips anyone?

Make friends with a few agents who you can trust, you feed them a few roles and hopefully they do the same. Takes a few years but is worth it and saves many hours of crap!

I am not a fan of agents, but just part of the system and if you find a good one add him to your email or linked in and keep in touch.

[shanti]

News..

yep had this on the phone just yesterday the role was for the same job as im doing now SC cleared Virtualisation role she asked what i was on blah blah asked how much i wanted told her she said oh thats too high.

Other candidates have asked for £25-£30ph i mean its a £40+ph role all day long stop cutting your nose of to spite your face if you want to earn low money go permie and stop cutting the rates for everyone else.

The rates have been falling since 2001 as supply expands. Market rates are per transaction based (i.e. there is no such thing as a rate - just what a willing employer is willing to pay to a willing employee at one particular time).

In anycase, have you have been reading the news lately? - we are all going to be up poop street without a paddle. Off shoring is going to hit the contract and temp market hard. BT is one - and after having a chat with the HR peeps in Tesco - the majority of their temp requirements will no longer be filled by UK contractors - but instead go to their offshoring company.

[Ivor Bigun]

The sad part is that there are some contractors out there desparate (or stupid enough) to fall for these very obvious agent tactics

Its just business Taz where you have the weaker hand.
Deal with it, accept it or get round it.
If you can't then join a union

[Grinder]

Some clientcos insist on an "open-book" where they know what the agency is paying the contractor. However, I interviewed for a role recently where an old colleague was also a candidate. He went through a different agency, and was complaining to me how low the rate was. I didn't tell him the rate I was being offered was 50% higher!

In anycase, have you have been reading the news lately? - we are all going to be up poop street without a paddle. Off shoring is going to hit the contract and temp market hard. BT is one - and after having a chat with the HR peeps in Tesco - the majority of their temp requirements will no longer be filled by UK contractors - but instead go to their offshoring company.

Depends what line of work you are in. In my last role I was helping to off-shore a migration from VB6 to VB.net. We had a developer on the team who could have done it, but the organisation had a policy of sending this type of thing off-shore - their rates were a quarter of our UK-based .net guy.

But they didn't get rid of him - they kept him on to ensure the migration went smoothly - so they were never going to save money. And then it didn't go smoothly anyway, and they're stil working on it 9 months down the line. Our man would have done it by now. Staff-turnover in India means that they are continually re-learning what they've already been told.

I guess it will finally get launched, and when there are issues, they will most likely spend another 9 months bringing it back to the UK.

Just one view but in my experience there are no cheap alternatives!

[shanti]

Depends what line of work you are in. In my last role I was helping to off-shore a migration from VB6 to VB.net. We had a developer on the team who could have done it, but the organisation had a policy of sending this type of thing off-shore - their rates were a quarter of our UK-based .net guy.

But they didn't get rid of him - they kept him on to ensure the migration went smoothly - so they were never going to save money. And then it didn't go smoothly anyway, and they're stil working on it 9 months down the line. Our man would have done it by now. Staff-turnover in India means that they are continually re-learning what they've already been told.

I guess it will finally get launched, and when there are issues, they will most likely spend another 9 months bringing it back to the UK.

Just one view but in my experience there are no cheap alternatives!

After spending the best part of six months in India last year - have to admit the quality of the engineering is pretty high out there. Just that the distances hurt projects and the processes are not really in place to take advantage of the Indian skills base from the UK. Projects in the UK tend to be smaller with complex local needs, so probably not best placed for outsourcing - as opposed to the larger US projects.

[Another Dodgy Agent]

Anyone got any tricks to stop your time being wasted by Agents who are posting on job boards, but either do not have an open role, are just keeping them selves busy collecting CVs or have established candidates in hand and are just fishing to see who else is on the market?

*Ask for a job specification to be sent to you first? (if they have one and can be bothered to send it - more likely to exist)
*Ask questions about the role being signed off or budgetted? (see if they have a valid story)
*Ask if they have already submitted to their clients and the status? (might give you an honest answer)

.. how do you stop burning hours carving out targetted CV's when agents do not have bonafide, signed off roles - or are just probably pitching speculatively to clients.

.. any tips anyone?

This is going to lop your thinking sideways, so with respect, may I suggest you sit down before reading any further. Ok comfy?

Right, we have a global recession on, what that means for the job market, IT or otherwise is many candidates (good and bad) on the market, consequently agencies receive many CVs from many candidates. The results of this is agencies are not fishing for candidates, quite the reverse actually, surprising eh? You would be amazed at how many applications we get, hundreds most of whom are not suitable for that given role they are applying for but hey ho you could argue the job of an agent is to sort the wheat from the chaff.

It is illegal for any agency to advertise a role they do not believe to be genuine, any agency can be targetted for an audit and the fines are huge so you will not find many agenices advertising dodgy roles. However a caveat to that would be that we often have line manager clients provide us with a role that they have not gained budget approval for however this is not the fault of the ageny (obviously) and we recruit for these roles without knowing budget approval has not been obtained - trust me its as frustrating for you as it is for us.

[Moscow Mule]

<snip>.

My




Heart




Bleeds...