Negotiating to a project basis

**2uk** · 21 May 2007, 00:17

This is exactly what I want to know as well, but the only way to find out is to wait for the experience.

**tim123** · 21 May 2007, 08:25

Originally posted by Funkywood

Hi, I've been permie (inside IR35) contracting for year now and getting fed up of being asked to do bits of stuff when I just want to take on a project and fancy taking control a bit more and maybe sending less to El Gordo.

My current 'contract' is such a permie role I couldn't claim is was outside IR35 if I was Mr Brown himself.

I want to know how easy it tends to be to negotiate a contract to be on a project basis with deliverables and stuff if the starting point is the usual fixed term daily rate position that you find on the job sites. How many tend be project length roles suitable for this refactoring and how many are just companies desperate for full time staff but can't find anyone to fill a permanent position?

I guess clients would be fine with this as deliverables are what matter but that agencies aren't going to make it so easy? Anyone care to share their experiences?

I've been looking for this sort of contract for 20 years, well before IR35 was thought of.

I asked clients with whom I have established a rapport whether this was possible and, for what I do, the answer has always been no.

From their point of view, the extra effort of defining the deliverables in a way that is acceptable to them and also fair to you, is too time consuming for them. You are, I presume, going to want stage payments at certain points during the delivery and each one of these has to be fully specified in the contract.

Many of the consultants that I have worked with have also tried to find work this way and with one single exception (in 20 years) have reported the same response.

tim

**Funkywood** · 21 May 2007, 09:08

Hmm..
Guess that answers my question.

Thanks Tim.

Guess my next question is how close to that ideal can you get, with the main aim being getting out of IR35 but also being free from the day to day permie stuff?

**shoes** · 21 May 2007, 10:25

I think a large stumbling block here is that most of the time you are being 'managed' by a permie middle manager whose experience is managing other permies. They see a need to get a 'temp' in and as far as they are concerned you are there to do what needs doing at the time. They don't have the skillset or the inclination to produce a set of measurable deliveribles. Even if your work is actually project based and lends itself to a contract of this type it often simply isn't in the relevant managers vocabulary. They just want to get you in and have you working on what they need quickly.

Unfortunately what the customer wants and what is easiest for us for a definite 'outside IR35 gig' are rarely the same thing. This is my main gripe with IR35, like most government legislation it has no basis in how the real world operates.

**chicane** · 21 May 2007, 10:40

Funkywood, if you really want to work on a deliverables basis, your best bet is to work genuine B2B (ie without an agency) where your clients are actually likely to understand the concept of payment for deliverables rather than time.

But then you may not fancy the idea of getting on the phone and doing some selling, or you may be used to working with large corporates who wouldn't look twice at a one-man contracting outfit unless through an agency. As is often the case, the most desirable option is the one that's most difficult to accomplish.

Negotiating to a project basis